Speaker 1: 0:09

Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel podcast. I'm Lauren Langman. I'm one of the world's leading dog trainers and it's my mission to help owners become their dog's top priority. In each episode, you'll discover how to gain trust and communicate with your dog like never before, creating unbreakable bonds that make you the most exciting part of their world. Okay, separation struggles, separation, anxiety. Separation can be stressful, and I'm speaking today to Alice. Alice has experienced this firsthand, really. So, alice, tell us your story, tell us about you and Bonnie. Where did Bonnie come from and how has separation really affected your life with her?

Speaker 2: 0:49

Yeah, so my partner and I, we adopted Bonnie when she was two and the information that the rescue centre had really with their observations was that she was a gentle giant with no separation issues whatsoever. So we thought, ok, we can handle a dog of that size if that's the sort of temperament we're getting into. And a few weeks or so after we got Bonnie, we actually found out that she had separation struggles by way of getting a complaint from the council about the noise complaint from the council about the noise. So that was pretty mortifying to suddenly realise that not only had Bonnie been suffering, but also our neighbours as well, and this was actually a really urgent issue that we needed to fix.

Speaker 1: 1:35

Now, when you got that letter, because I've also received one of those letters, so we're in good company, I feel. Alice, mine was from a neighbour who didn't like the dog training centre here and I genuinely don't believe there is a noise issue and I think we've got to be realistic. Is there a noise issue? Isn't there a noise issue? We have cameras here. We have many security cameras around the site. It's just the nature of having dogs, I think because I like to make sure the site is secure know that when I received that letter, as much as I knew that we didn't actually have a big struggle, it's a horrible feeling when you receive the letter, like your head just hits the floor, doesn't it? Your stomach just drops. You get that feeling of real. It changes your whole day, doesn't it? You tell me what you think, but I know when I received that letter it hurt oh, absolutely it was.

Speaker 2: 2:20

it was utterly mortifying. I felt like the worst dog owner in the world, thinking that Bonnie had been struggling and I hadn't even known about it. But we just it's one of those, when you know better, you do better. Like now, looking back, I think, yeah, there were signs there, but at the time I didn't have the knowledge that I have now and so you know we had a lot of learning to do and I mean I wrote notes to all my neighbours to put through the door to say we've been made aware. We're terribly sorry. Please know that we're now working on this as a priority, try and mend those relationships and really kind of looked into what sensible protocols there were to help Bonnie with this struggle. But we were actually fortunate that, um, because I'm self-employed, I was able to work quite flexibly, so we were able to actually eliminate pretty much all um absences, like me and Chris, kind of like, were able to kind of juggle looking after Bonnie whilst we figured out what to do for the longer term.

Speaker 1: 3:21

I love that you immediately wanted to look after the relationship with your neighbour too, like all your neighbours. I just think you're just gorgeous I know you sent me a note in the past and gorgeous cards and just lovely sentiment and you're great with words and I think that's something we've got to address and I think you've really hit the nail on the head here. You didn't just worry about Bonnie, you actually worried about your neighbour relationships, because those are also important, and know that no neighbour in my opinion, is out there just to be plain difficult. There is always a struggle of some sort. I think my neighbours I don't think they like the busyness or the traffic or the day-to-day hubbub of a busy business.

Speaker 1: 3:57

When you've lived in a really rural, quiet area with no busy business, I think it's a different thing. Suddenly you've got a bit of commercial in a space that you thought was potentially just residential and for you. Similarly, they've had nice, calm, quiet Alice neighbours and suddenly they've got this massive dog that they're noticing anyway, because you know what she's a noticeable dog. Just tell everyone what breed she is and also maybe what other struggles she's had, because this is not just any old big gentle giant. She's actually had huge struggles. She's not been completely what she said on the on the tin or what she was sort of sold to as, because the rescue center is still placing a dog. She's actually come with a few struggles and I know you're in such a good place now and I know you're going to share this journey with our listeners and at the same time there have been big struggles here oh for sure.

Speaker 2: 4:47

Like I think, if anybody, if any of our neighbours, were concerned about the noise, uh, and perhaps didn't ideally want to complain to the council, I I kind of feel like in their shoes we probably weren't looking like the most approachable people on the street.

Speaker 1: 5:02

Uh, bonnie is, frankly, nearly as big as I am and uh, she's a I just have to add here alice is quite little, so she is quite sort of fine and petite, but but bonnie is a pretty hefty crossbred um, and she would look like a fight bread dog, right she would.

Speaker 2: 5:23

Yeah, she's a big brindle, uh, german shepherd sort of canny corso cross. So there's a bit of.

Speaker 1: 5:29

It's a kind of mastiff, mega mutt like, yeah, and that's that's how I describe her mastiff, and I love your mega mutt added to the end there. When you look at her, she looks more mastiff than anything else. You don't really be the german shepherd or anything else when I look at her. And what are the can Canicorsos bred for?

Speaker 2: 5:47

So you know, I guess generally for generations, you know, they've been bred for sort of guarding duties really. So Bonnie for sure has some of those ideal attributes of being wary of strangers, wary of movement and sort of unfamiliar things, being a bit of a pessimist, those were all things that actually if we'd wanted sort of our home or livestock or what have you protecting, she'd be ideal for the job. But for a you know, a household pet in a sort of suburban environment there was definitely some concepts that she was lacking to sort of gel with that environment that we've needed to teach her and I love that you are so into games club and pro dog trainer club.

Speaker 1: 6:35

You've got all the right language and you speak about her in the right way. But let's be honest, she's a lot of people's nightmare when they first got her home, like she was not the gentle giant that she. She came to with, just a couple of the things that she she would maybe do that were not ideal as a pet dog yeah, so the kind of three main areas.

Speaker 2: 6:54

So, um, apart from first one being separation not being able to leave on her own, as we quickly found out, but also trying to have any sort of visitors to the house, having anybody she wasn't familiar with in our space, uh is is is really a big problem for her. Um, she needs to get to know people quite gradually, as we've learned, and that's kind of that's a work in progress, and then out and about trying to take her out in public. Um, she was reactive to just about everything. So you know we're talking, you know not just other dogs or strangers, you know psychics, children. You know it was absolutely terrifying, um, quite early on when we got her, even just a bit of eye contact from somebody she didn't know would be enough to send her straight to kind of level 100 kind of panic mode.

Speaker 2: 7:47

Um, and, like you say, like she's quite an eye-catching dog, she's quite a noticeable dog. Where we're in an environment where there's a lot of cockapoos and labradors and spaniels and kind of those types of sort of dogs, much more kind of your common sort of family dogs, she stands out and so she was getting quite a bit of eye contact and that was really causing us huge amounts of stress, huge problems trying to go out for walks. So we really had to kind of wind it all back in and find a good place to start and just building her skills from a safe environment before growing her world again.

Speaker 1: 8:22

Now, before we go further, I think I can tell you already, alice, we're going to speak lots. We're going to speak lots and there's lots we get to do here and I know the podcast listeners Sex and the Squirrel listeners people that are here are going to love to hear your journey with Bonnie, because it has been a journey, and I also know that you've come out the other side. So, yes, there's still work and yes, there's still things you're training, but actually you and her live a really cool life, chris included, and yet Chris is still with us, and I think that's important.

Speaker 1: 8:47

Sometimes dogs can stress a relationship out like they really can, and sometimes they can cause. It's almost like having a child, and I know that we have discussions, matt and I. Skittles now sleeps in the bedroom. I don't know how it happened, but she sleeps in the bedroom and we've not had a dog in the bedroom for years. And you definitely can have those discussions in partnerships and relationships. But separation let's tackle separation today and I know we're going to tackle lots more in the future and, with your permission, of course and she's it, she's up for it I want to know separation. Do you have a camera in the house or did you have a camera in the house, or do you have any way of monitoring her in the house?

Speaker 2: 9:24

We do now. It was something we didn't have to begin with and that's why you know we were completely unaware that there was problems while we were out. But that was one of the first things we did was to get a camera sort of set up, just a little app on our phones, so that we could start doing little kind of practices. We're talking second time to begin with so that we could see how comfortable she was. We could get better at reading her body language, um, and try not to ever kind of push it too far and and just kind of go at her pace. But the camera is definitely, um a good bit of kit if you're having this struggle and you can get a little camera set up. It really helped us.

Speaker 1: 10:10

Yeah, no, absolutely, and I think it makes such a big difference, like I really think it makes such a big difference. Second thing for me, and I think this is really, really important what did? You're a massive absolute dogs, you're a fan, but you're also so rooted in what we do and you get it, and you really do get it. I know you've completed the badges and those of you that haven't seen 10 Days to Stop Separation please, please, please, join Games Club. It's completely part of Games Club. You get all of our 10-day courses and if you haven't joined Games Club or you can't join Games Club, then at least get 10 days to stop separation.

Speaker 1: 10:55

To our listeners. It's not £97. It's just £27. Right now you can head over to the Absolute Dogs store. It's absolute-dogscom. Go and get it £27. Absolute bargain. Now, alice, you've done all of the courses and you've got really, really, really gritty with it and you absolutely are my perfect student. But what probably your three biggest games or three biggest builds, or three biggest things that you would do if you were sort of advising someone else? What really moved the needle for you? What really changed the game for you? What really helped?

Speaker 2: 11:32

calmness. Calmness is king, absolutely. I mean, like you say, I'm a fan of absolute dogs. Simply because it works, I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't be gritty about the courses and I wouldn't still be doing it if I wasn't benefiting from it, if Bonnie wasn't benefiting from it, and with a lot of training struggles, but with separation included, calmness is just the thing that needs to kind of underpin everything and that really moved the needle for Bonnie.

Speaker 2: 12:01

So, um, both with the separation and with her general reactivity struggles, she was not getting enough sleep. She was waking up and going from naught to 100 for a car door slamming in the street outside, or we live on the same street as a primary school and when we first got Bonnie, the noise and commotion of school kids going in and out twice a day was was catastrophically awful on a daily basis Until we got that calmness to a level where actually she realized, oh, that's none of my business, I can just chill. Um, you know that sort of disengagement as well, kind of the other concepts coming into play, but just being able to actually switch off in the house, being able to have a nice space where she could chill out, where she sleep, where she knew she actually wasn't on guard duty for anything. That definitely gave us the right platform to then build on her other skills.

Speaker 1: 13:03

And I think that so many people don't have that basic platform, like so many people are building from, I suppose, a poor foundation. If we've got no good foundation, then we really are going to crumble, especially with a dog like Bonnie, who's had no stability, who's had no early foundation and he probably has had a pretty poor start without us knowing too much Now. I also know there have been physical problems for Bonnie. What sort of physical problems have you experienced with Bonnie?

Speaker 1: 13:30

So these guys, I have to say, if I was a person homing a dog, you guys are the perfect home, like she couldn't have landed on her feet anymore, like she is such a lucky, lucky, lucky dog and I know you feel lucky to have found her. But I just watched from the outside, thinking this dog really was heading one way and she was only heading to put to sleep, and I don't say that lightly. This dog was heading on a put to sleep route and she absolutely I don't see her having made it in other worlds. I really don't. I I am so grateful that you guys cross paths, because I I it gives me weird goosebumps when I say things sometimes and I got them then for me I only see that she would have been put to sleep. I really can't see that she was an easy home for anyone, not just because of her separation, not just because of her um struggles with other dogs, but also her physical struggles. So tell us a little bit more there, alice yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:28

So this was this is one of the other slightly nasty surprises we got uh sort of shortly after adopting her, was that? Um, she, uh she started to limp about two or three months after we got her. So obviously we kind of got investigated and, uh, long story short, she needed both of her cruciate ligaments, um operating on so from start to finish whilst we were awaiting treatment and then in between treatments and rehab after treatment, um took about nine months. So this was about nine months of um pretty much being on kind of home rest or maybe going to like a private hire secure field for short exercise periods, as we were starting to kind of build a backup or um, you know, just very, very gradually, sort of taking it very steadily, but um, in a way, weirdly, I think, with specifically with the kind of the reactivity struggles. It was almost a blessing in disguise because, one, we became aware that actually her reactivity was partially being contributed to by her physical discomfort and two, uh, even before we'd actually discovered absolute dogs, we were ditching the walk as a matter of necessity, sort of sort of as the vet had told us to do, and then during that time I said, oh, I'm gonna go mad if I can't do any dog training. I can't do some learning whilst I'm going to go mad if I can't do any dog training. I can't do some learning whilst I'm stuck at home with her. And I found you guys, and the rest is history. But yeah, we got into the kind of naughty but nice learning. There was lots we could start to do at home. So by the time we could actually start taking her out on walks and we could start exercising her a little bit at a time and gradually building her back up physically. We also had a few more skills in the pot at that point which were helping her to be less reactive as well.

Speaker 2: 16:23

Um, so, um, yeah, there's, she's been a challenging one and I mean, uh, it's I.

Speaker 2: 16:32

I totally agree with what you're saying, that she she could have very easily been on a put to sleep list, and whether that was before she was rehomed or even after, I mean, the vet was not terrifically optimistic about what kind of outcome we would have with her surgeries, just because she was so reactive that there was a very good chance that, say, I don't know, we get a knock at the door, or something like that when she was in surgery recovery.

Speaker 2: 16:56

She could have had an outburst that might have damaged the surgery site and that would have been pretty much it. Um, so we, we sort of decided, we know we're going to go for it, but we're going to, we're really going to do this properly, you know. So, uh, she wasn't able to do stairs so we kind of had the mattress our mattress down on the living room floor for about three months and, um, any deliveries we needed to get the house, we got delivered elsewhere. And, yeah, we kind of turned our world upside down to accommodate everything we needed to get her through that period and get her to a place where she was going to be happier and healthier.

Speaker 1: 17:38

I don't want to humanize or overhumanize dogs that there is a space for still thinking about this for me, which is you know what, you know when you're in pain and you know when you're feeling in discomfort, or you know when you've even got like I've had it where I can't move my neck from one way to the other. Equally I can. Today I've seen a chiropractor. I love seeing a chiropractor, but when I haven't got that range like you slept funny or that can niggle you throughout the whole day.

Speaker 1: 18:04

So say then you've got a dog who has got a full bucket and they've had a lot going on and actually they've also got this neck range thing going or this back pain or this like knee pain or sort of any sort of stifle, injury or issue, and then you leave them alone and they're already full bucket. You can see, even just from a human perspective, can't you like I'm, I maybe, I don't know feeling well, and then your partner leaves for the day and you kind of think, and then he's running late and then he doesn't come back at all because actually something's happened at work or whatever. You can see how that all pays in and you can see how that dog's separation might also escalate when there's pain.

Speaker 2: 18:42

Absolutely Like you said. Just the presence of any physical discomfort is already pained the bucket so much that there's very little room for anything else that's challenging before it just overflows.

Speaker 1: 18:54

And I think that's definitely the situation that we were in with Bonnie for sure the other thing I think that's worth considering here is actually how you probably change Bonnie's feeding completely. So how is Bonnie fed right now? Because I know that there'll be like enrichment bowls and I know that there'll be forms of and I was thinking about this the other day and this is really funny, you'll like this, alice. So my ponies have enrichment, my chickens have enrichment and what I've realised is even my goat has enrichment, like everyone has enrichment, and it's become a bit of a passion area for me. It's a bit of a purpose space for me. So, for example, I've got one horse who's his spinal and space is a little bit close. He's got no issue. He's got no, no awareness of it yet, but I've x-rayed it, so I know. So I try really hard to have his food always low, because the lower he is, the more it helps his spine to be as stretched out as it can be, whereas with my chickens I feed the little birds that go in the front of the house, but my chickens have taken to jumping in the air to get the bird food.

Speaker 1: 20:36

I'm on a meeting and all I can see and I've got about 20 chickens, probably more. Six came from the battery this week. Actually They've got no feathers. They absolutely look horrific. But I'm so excited for the life they're going to have and they're hopping and they're not yet. They won't even come out of their bed and but the others are hopping and leaping in the air and like stealing all the food. It just makes me laugh to see them doing this level of enrichment and, um, I really love it, like I love enrichment for them.

Speaker 1: 21:01

But I also know that enrichment is a huge part of why my dogs settle when I leave, to the point that they don't really notice that much when I even come home anymore. Like my dogs are pretty settled. Like you might get like a nice yawn and a stretch like oh, she's back, and but it's not much more than that. I definitely don't get zoomies, I definitely don't get barking, I definitely don't get a lot of excitement and I own 10 dogs, so I'm not someone who's just got one dog and to come home. So I do have a multi-dog household and classic's probably my noisiest or wild who have to grab a toy or like squeal, um, but other than that they're pretty good and I would say like, like a lot of the time they they will barely get out of beds. They're like stretching and then going back to sleep again. Enrichment's what's helped me, and my feeding regimes, not routines, because I ditched the bowl and I ditch the routine and I ditch the walk as well. They really all help me. How about you? Definitely.

Speaker 2: 21:54

Oh for sure. I mean whether we're talking about sort of training concepts and building skills, or whether we're talking about when Bonnie was on home rest in between surgeries and all the rest of it home rest in between surgeries and all the rest of it, having games and having food enrichment at home, um, and having those options, um, really really hugely made a difference. So, um, what started as something we did out of necessity when she was on home rest, like um, like getting her to do a little sort of scent searches around the house, sort of finding little bits of food or finding a toy and getting a food reward, or whatever it might be doing kind of scent games, or whether it's having, you know, a filled cong that she can enjoy in her bed, or having an enrichment bowl with all sorts of lovely little bits and pieces that she can sort of snuffle out, you know, or just sort of playing games and sort of learning new tricks and things like that there's. Why would she use a bowl when there's all those other options?

Speaker 1: 22:52

It's just so much more fun for her and for me frankly as well, and also, I think and I think you hit the nail on the head so much more fun for her, but also for yourself, and I think that's something that we cover in our 10 Days to Stop Separation. Actually, why on earth would you put food in a bowl like? Earlier?

Speaker 1: 23:09

I was moving and I've got a couple of dogs staying with us their owner's gone away and lovely, lovely dogs, but for me, I use all of their food to keep them entertained throughout the day, because, if not, it's a full-time job for me and I want to be able to have like lots of time for everything else, and so it absolutely helps at every single layer and level to ditch the bowl like it allows for my day to run almost it and and it allows so much flexibility. And what I've really noticed is I love working with flexible people and I really struggle to work with inflexible people, and I would say the same with dogs. I love working with a flexible dog, whereas it's harder to work with a dog who's not flexible. What would you say?

Speaker 2: 23:49

oh yeah, definitely, definitely, and it's. And I think for anyone listening who thinks, well, you know, like my dog isn't flexible, but I can be taught, there's games for that. You know there's, that's, that's something that you know, just because your dog might not be used to not being fed from a bowl, for example, if you're kind of like approaching this topic for the first time that that's can be grown, that can be taught and um, you know that's. That's certainly um, something in my experience that you know. Bonnie is far more flexible now than she was when I sort of started training um and um, and I think that it does, it allows that and it's transferable between different contexts. Then, isn't it? If you've got that concept, then you end up with a dog that's not only more flexible with their behavior out and about, on a walk, for example, but maybe more flexible to the home environment, like talking about separation if you're present or if you're not, and learning to actually be cool with that and that that difference is is absolutely fine and that they can still lay in their bed and enjoy their Kong whether you're in the room or not.

Speaker 2: 24:55

Um, and you know, I think I'm conscious that maybe listeners who are kind of thinking. But this is an awful problem and people have told me it's hard, people have told me it's hard to solve. Is it ever going to get any better. It seems like such a huge kind of step to think I could ever leave my dog on their own from where we are right now, where they kind of literally cannot be left for more than a few seconds. Um, and, and you can, absolutely. I just want listeners to know that you can and it works, because you just take it little step by little step and you know you will see. You will see that that skill being being built over time. Um, I made a little kind of um tracker for myself to kind of like help with that. I was literally just about to bring it up.

Speaker 1: 25:41

I've been here going yeah, here it is and I've been looking at it and I absolutely love the tracker and I'll make sure we get an absolute dogs version of your tracker, if you're tracker, and I'll make sure we get an absolute dog's version of your tracker if you're happy.

Speaker 1: 25:50

Yeah, we'll make it pretty and we'll, well, we'll we'll make sure that listeners can get hold of it. So, um, keep, keep with us and we'll make sure you can get hold of it. And definitely, if you're part of games club, you're part of pdt club, we'll make sure you get hold of it. But, um, I definitely, definitely, definitely know that things like this really help. So, on the separation tracker, you talk about, um, the safety net. You talk about disturbed or calm. Basically, where, where are they in the head? You talk about barriers, distance, employment and duration, and no, you don't mean are you employing a new person? You are employing this dog and what are they doing? So you give barrier scores, you give distance scores, you give employment scores, and that is not rating them on how employable they are. This is, uh, what is the dog doing? And duration scores. So this is a really, really nice one.

Speaker 1: 26:32

Now, I know that a lot of your understanding and knowledge has come from games club and pro dog trainer club, and I'm so proud of you. As a student like I cannot sit like this. If I was to pick the perfect student, alice would be one of them. Now, alice, what would you say to someone thinking about doing? You put that crown on, lady, so move over. Step aside, beyonce. This is your crown. What I would say is you're a brilliant student, but what would you say to someone who's thinking about Games Club or Pro Dog Trainer Club, or wanting a bit more support? What would your advice be?

Speaker 2: 27:05

If you can jump in, just do it, just just give it a go, because, um, training a dog that has separation struggles can be quite a lonely space, um, and I've found that having the community of games club and pdp club um has been fantastic, just I mean for my own mental well-being and motivation with tackling the struggle and kind of continuing on with it, because you've got a global community full of people who get it, because they're either tackling the similar thing to you and you can kind of buddy up and help each other out and be accountable to each other with your training, or you've got somebody who has successfully overcome a struggle that they can say, right, well, what worked for me was this protocol, this strategy or these, this sort of menu of games, um, and can kind of help coach you, um, and it's just such a fantastic space for knowledge sharing and support as well, because everybody in that community is a dog owner who has at least one dog training struggle or had a dog training struggle, that they are now kind of living the dog owning dream and and they're passionate to help others.

Speaker 2: 28:23

Um, so, yeah, if you, if you can jump in, just just do it, just give it a go, because there's this incredible value to be had.

Speaker 1: 28:32

And you really are, for me, my dream student. Like I look at what you're doing, you're such a good student and I know that so many people are going to learn from you. So I know today is whistle stop on separation. But, alice, are you willing to chat to us just a little more on another episode or in the future on you, bonnie, your journeys, your adventures and maybe some of the other struggles?

Speaker 1: 28:56

Because I know that you've also tackled dog-dog reactivity and you've tackled it at a level where we know in the past that actually there's been a pretty serious incident with Bonnie, way before you had her and before she was in your hands, and certainly wasn't being managed well, but there's been a pretty serious dog dog incident. Are you happy to share that on a future podcast with us? Absolutely, absolutely. I thank you for being here. That was this episode of the Sex and Squirrel podcast. I cannot wait to share more of Alice and Bonnie's journey with you because I know, most of all, it's a really successful one and I know this is here for you too. So, with that, listeners, share the podcast, tell your friends, bring them all over here and make sure you make it a great day.