Lauren Langman: 0:09

Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel podcast. I'm Lauren Langman. I'm one of the world's leading dog trainers and it's my mission to help owners become their dog's top priority. In each episode, you'll discover how to gain trust and communicate with your dog like never before, creating unbreakable bonds that make you the most exciting part of their world. Okay, we're talking resource guarding, and I know, karen, you are joining me today to share with all of our listeners how it is really living with a resource guard and living with a dog who really does have some fairly extreme resource guarding examples, but also a dog who is lovable, who plays games, who games have really transformed him in so many ways, and yet you still have a level of resource guarding in there that definitely needs managing, and sometimes on a daily basis. Tell us about it.

Karen: 0:56

So yeah, so he's a brilliant dog.

Karen: 0:57

He's so much fun, he loves games, he loves tricks, he loves everything that we do here, and he will still struggle with disengagement as a concept.

Karen: 1:08

So the ability to kind of leave things alone, let things go, and, in the sense of resources, that can manifest as hovering over stuff growling, if you go near him when he's got something that he thinks he should have, that you maybe want back or don't think he should have. He has bitten um, not frequently, but he has and I know it's in there um, so, day to day, it's a question of managing his environment in terms of not putting him in situations where there are things he can get hold of that I don't want him to have, or things that are not safe for him to have. Um, and then also skilling him up so that, even if disengagement is not his biggest skill, there are alternative ways we can deal with it. So if he's got something, I know, for example, that I can turn this into a game or effectively turn this into a trick that he enjoys and then flip it, flip this, flip the story, and then I can get the thing back, but not because he thinks he's given up the thing.

Lauren Langman: 2:08

And it's so interesting hearing that from an owner's perspective, because I know that you are a really intelligent owner. You're a really savvy owner, you work with what you've got and you work with the dog in front of you. But deep down some days, how does it feel owning a dog that might bite? And how does it feel owning a dog that might bite? And how does it feel owning a dog that you have to work with in this way some days?

Karen: 2:30

some days it's scary. Some days you think, why am I not making more progress with this? And I think some days you also think why is mine the dog that can't do this and does do that, and why do I not have an easy dog? He's my first dog. Did I do something wrong? Was there something that I should have done when he was younger or something I did when he was younger? That's kind of made it worse. You go through all of those thoughts, I think.

Lauren Langman: 2:54

And I remember feeling exactly this with Poppy and I know we've worked together today with some of my dogs and I said look simple, simple, simple.

Lauren Langman: 3:02

But I also know complex, because I've owned complex and I've owned dogs who are just like some humans Some are more complex than others I think and some have different struggles and some have different areas to grow in, and I know that Rupert and Poppy certainly sit for me with the dog category of certainly more to grow and more skills for the owner to have. I feel like Poppy qualified me very well in naughty but nice dogs and Poppy qualified me very well in dogs that have real disengagement struggles and I feel very well equipped to handle a reactive dog, and I know that you are, and I know that not every dog is like Rupert. And yet there are people listening today that are going to struggle and struggle with resource guarding and there are future people that are going to pick up dogs just like Rupert who are going to have this in the next 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, as long as this podcast goes out there. Now, when I think about that, let's think about our top tips and our strategies for dogs like Rupert, because we can talk about dogs like Rupert until we're blue in the face, but actually really you've got a few options.

Lauren Langman: 3:58

One is you rehome that dog. Two is you put that dog to sleep. Three is you work with the dog in front of you and potentially put some management situations in there or some management potential Now for us. We're always going to go down the management route. Typically, or potentially, we're going to home the dog if we really can't handle it and put to sleep, really as a last resort or option. But when you do have dogs that bite, they're in a family, and they're in a family with small children or they're in a family with vulnerable people. I think we do have those considerations to take fairly seriously. Now, in some ways, you're in a good scenario for him because it's you and him and actually, being you and him, you can manage things fairly easily. I know it's slightly more difficult when you have the cat involved, but actually it's you and him largely, sometimes your parents and sometimes friends and family, but actually typically you and him.

Karen: 4:49

What are some of our top tips for handling a dog like Rupert?

Karen: 4:52

So I think if we're talking resource, resource guarding specifically, then definitely one of the biggest things is not to make an issue of things, particularly things that he's got, that he thinks are important.

Karen: 4:58

Because if he thinks it's important and then I tell him it's important, by making a big deal about the fact that he's got the important thing, then the thing becomes more important and then the disengagement struggle becomes way, way worse, so hard as it is when he's stolen things that I don't want him to chew or that could potentially be dangerous, and there will be a. I mean, if he had something super duper dangerous which he never has, then there would potentially be a pointer which you would just have to kind of try and stop that happening. But in the majority of cases, things like he's stolen my socks or he's stolen my pants and I don't want him to chew a big hole in the crotch of my favorite pants, or he's got hold of a 20 pound note before I don't really want him to chew up a 20 pound note because that's quite expensive. But the more you kind of flap and make an issue of it and go towards him and make him know that you want the thing back, the more he wants the thing.

Lauren Langman: 5:49

Now one of my clients, their dog, ate a fishhook and another one of my dogs, or my client's dogs, picked up a razor blade. So those are the sorts of things you do, go, dear Lord, and another client's dog had a serious operation with an acupuncture needle and so removing the acupuncture needle and all of these things are potentially life threatening, and I think that's giving Karen's comments some context. Those things make you suddenly go hang on a second. What do I need to do now? But even then, in those scenarios, sometimes rushing in is still going to end in the wrong result. So I completely agree and not giving it more importance and it already has because of the fact that he's now parading with it or got it and is very aware that he's throwing your pants in the air. And when you've got out of the situation you can kind of see the funny side. But in that situation it is quite tough, isn't it, to see the funny side?

Karen: 6:39

Yeah, definitely, either because he's got something you don't want him to have, or because you're worried what he might do with the thing he's got, or because I mean there have been situations where he's got hold of something and I've needed to do something but I can't, I don't want to leave him with the thing, because even if I've kind of decided that I'll just kind of deal with the it's got, you never mind, I can get another one or it'll go in the bin. Even if you've kind of dealt, it's still not safe necessarily for him to keep the thing and you go out, or there has to be an element of safety that I can't just leave him to to chew the thing and then potentially swallow the thing if I'm not there, because sometimes going out, leaving him to it, would potentially be the best option, because you've diffused the situation by leaving the situation and can't you think about so many healthy adult relationships.

Lauren Langman: 7:30

You're like, actually, if I just leave this situation because there is a real like you can, you can actually relate this to so much uh, human behavior. Right, but you're right, actually by doing that you've kind of given away your responsibility there and actually in that moment, if he swallows that and if he chews all of that, he eats all of that and it ends up in intestine and he's a major operation he doesn't make it.

Lauren Langman: 7:48

Suddenly you have a different level of thought process and you go. Maybe I made the wrong decision here hard, yep.

Karen: 7:54

Um, he's had a hedgehog in the house once, which obviously was not ideal. Um, that's not a situation you can walk away from, because there's a hedgehog which you want to rescue, there's a dog which really can't swallow a hedgehog and there's a situation that has to be handled. But again, it's not a situation where you can kind of go in and try and take the hedgehog either.

Lauren Langman: 8:18

But do tell us the hedgehog did survive. It did. Yes, it was caught under a saucepan. Love that it was caught under a saucepan. Now, I think this is really interesting If you are going to do something like that, and I know what your answer is going to be, but I really want you to share it with all of our listeners here Sex and Squirrel podcast the best podcast that is out there.

Lauren Langman: 8:34

Please, please, please, make sure you share this. Make sure all the other dog friends you've got, any doggy person, make sure they get hold of this podcast, because there's definitely something in it for everybody. Now, someone that's listening, karen, in the moment that you are going to um, effectively trade or swap or move like, I know exactly, um, how I would work this with my dogs hedgehogs under the saucepan or said capture item and I know now that what I must not do is go and revel in the fact I've captured this hedgehog and then put this hedgehog back in the garden or wherever I'm going to put it possibly not your garden, but somewhere else. But so many owners will go to do this. They've got it and it's almost like they've got the prized possession and they've managed to capture it from the dog. What we know is, if you do do that, you're never going to do that again because the dog's not going to give you the opportunity, especially not a roper or a poppy or that type of dog.

Lauren Langman: 9:23

What did you do then, when you had captured said hedgehog, that rupert is doing something else, quickly being occupied, maybe volunteering, in another direction. How is your exit out of that situation looking so?

Karen: 9:36

Rupert was completely removed from that room that the hedgehog was in. He was, I think I scattered. It was quite a few years ago, but I suspect I probably kind of distracted him with a massive handful of food down on the floor. So his brain was as away from the hedgehog as possible because realistically his brain had not left that hedgehog. It was still definitely there for the taking if the soft spot moved um and then he was taken out of the room and then the hedgehog was removed once he was not there anymore and I think this is really brilliant.

Lauren Langman: 10:05

What karen says here is um, his brain didn't leave, but he was physically removed and I had this experience with Skittle only recently. I was playing games with tennis balls and hiding them in sofas. We've got a sofa downstairs in the scent training area that's cut up. That sofa is for hiding balls in and things, and she'd found a hide which was a tennis ball I rewarded with another tennis ball which is exactly the same as the tennis ball I'd hidden. So identical objects, identical thing made of the same tennis ball. Material is an air kong. It was one of the the kong company's tennis balls made from exactly the same tennis ball cut up. And yet when I rewarded her with a new tennis ball, she didn't want the new tennis ball, she wanted the other tennis ball and her brain was completely in the other tennis ball, to the point that she couldn't train again that day for a tennis ball.

Lauren Langman: 10:52

Because I could not remove her from that scenario and that tennis, the best thing to do would be actually to pick her up and take her out. However, we're not talking resource guarding with her. If we were to pick up a dog who's in a resource guarding space, like Rupert, in that moment we're very likely to get bitten and I think that's really important to acknowledge. For Skittles, in that situation, she wasn't able to disengage from one toy and go to another toy. For rupert, in that space, he's not able to disengage from the um resource guarding and go to the new training game. But you can handle them differently. Skittle, you can pick up and put under your arm, because it's a different scenario, a different um space. He's not a dog you'd pick up and you definitely know that by doing something like that, you would actually almost ask yourself do I want to be bitten in this scenario? Okay, go ahead, pick him up.

Karen: 11:32

Yeah, because that is going to happen, right yes, it would yep um, and the only situation in which I would do that is if another dog or another person or another something was at risk. If I left him, I would put myself in harm's way to get him out of a situation if he was likely to hurt somebody else. This is interesting.

Lauren Langman: 11:51

This is a really interesting one because I really feel and this is again probably a debate for maybe off Sex and Squirrel podcast, but hey, we're here, let's chat it through I know that the majority of situations that he's going to come across with another dog, I actually think there's a real space and I think it's a hard one. It's definitely a hard one for us positive reinforcement style trainers, but it's a hard one. It's definitely a hard one for us positive reinforcement style trainers, but for me there's a space. For if that situation was to happen, I think it would actually diffuse a lot quicker than you think and I think you would flap a lot more than he would. I actually think it would be like handbags at dawn and then it would be quite quickly over and dogs like him and say Mango I think Mango is bigger than him, stronger than him and actually mentally a little tougher than him and I think it would just be a bit of a shake it off and handbags at dawn and it would be over. I don't feel like there's anything real malice-y in there and anything that's really followed up with hard bite, very different to some of the Terriers. I train some of the Staffies. I train some of the Pitbulls I train Like.

Lauren Langman: 12:45

I really love all of them. They're beautiful dogs but they've got very different follow-through and their end result is bite to kill and I think that is very much what they have been hard bred to do. And that's not a criticism of the breeds. I love them. I think they're fantastic breeds and one of my breeds that I will own in my lifetime is a staffy. I will own a staffy.

Lauren Langman: 13:03

I just own too many wiggly little dogs and many, many chickens right now and cats, so for me they're the wrong breed for my house and my setup because I have too many. In fact, today we were feeding a chicken in our house, right, karen? So we do know that. However, I feel like there's a space for that and I feel there's a space for that with appropriate stooge dogs and that's something I'd love to grow and love to give ourselves a bit more time to do because appropriate stooge dogs in those scenarios as much as we don't want to set a dog up for failure I feel like we'd be setting the scenario appropriately for success and for a level of learning and also level of owner confidence. I agree, maybe a vulnerable child, but that's about it, everyone else I'd say could fend for themselves.

Karen: 13:40

Yeah, I agree, don't go in the same space at all. But yeah, I mean there is. I think there is a. There's a scarcity thing there. To some extent it's more important because it doesn't happen at all. So he doesn't interact with other dogs because he doesn't really like other dogs, and I know he can react to other dogs, yeah, um. So yeah, definitely a scarcity.

Lauren Langman: 13:57

It's become a bigger thing than it potentially actually is. Yeah, which is interesting, isn't it really interesting? Space. Now another thing. If I think about resource guarding, I know that tricks have helped you loads. I don't know if you want to explain to everybody listening hey, sexy and squirrel podcast listeners tricks, tricks, tricks and tricks. If you want to explain to everybody listening hey, sexy and Squirrel podcast listeners tricks, tricks, tricks and tricks If you haven't already realised, you know what. We have a mega, mega, mega trick space, mega tricks book. If you're listening from Games Club or if you're listening from Pro Dog Trainer Club, you probably know this. If you're not listening from Games Club, then where on earth have you been? Join the Games Club? It's our immense space for dog training and learning, but at the bare minimum, I'd say, for basics, for everyone, get hold of the tricks book. Now, you love the tricks book and I know that you have played many, many, many, many tricks from that book and I know they've helped you hugely. How have they helped you and how have they helped you?

Karen: 14:43

well, firstly, relationship because he is quite a tricky dog. I mean, resource guarding is not the only struggle we have. I touched on dog dog reactivity. He he is quite a challenging dog to live with and quite a challenging dog to own. So being able to do something that's just fun but actually also builds loads of skills at the same time has been and he looks so blooming cute playing.

Lauren Langman: 15:03

I was only talking about him yesterday with um super kev one of our team and super kev I was like he's so damn cute and he's so damn naughty, all in the same like handful, like he's really cute, looks like a teddy bear.

Lauren Langman: 15:13

You can see why everyone ends up with a cockapoo dead, dead, cute, really, really, really funny, highly intelligent, which I think is part of his downfall, really, and his problem, and that's what I think um with so many of our naughty but nice dogs and so many of our sensitive dogs very, very intelligent and very, very quick to pair things. But when we think about rue in this environment and in this space, uh, tricks, your favorite tricks, maybe give us two, three, four of your favorite tricks or um reasons why they help with disengagement and reasons why they help with effectively resource guarding um.

Karen: 15:46

So I taught rupert to put his toys in a box. Um, this was not any. It wasn't taught for a resource guarding purpose. We taught it because it was fun and because his retrieve wasn't brilliant and I thought, well, let's work on retrieve in a fun way. But it actually has helped me out of resource guarding situations quite a few times, because if he's nicked something, the worst thing that you can do, as we've said, is try and get it back or negotiate it back, um, and he's usually quite heightened in terms of his arousal or his excitement at that point, so he's not as likely to just trade it. So if I was playing a deliberate game of of kind of fetch or switch or something like that, with socks or pants or whatever else he's taking a fancy to, he's still got his energy pitched at the level where you can trade and he'll drop it for food and that's. That's an intentional, purposeful game. But it notches up a bit when he's nicked it, particularly if you've clocked.

Lauren Langman: 16:42

He's nicked it and then he's clocked that you've clocked he's already in that heightened space, isn't it like he's already there? His arousal's up, your arousal's also up, everyone's kind of like up here in buckets, are suddenly filling very fast and so, yeah, it's a different space to work.

Karen: 16:58

Yeah so, rather than even trying to trade at that point, because I know that's unlikely to work, um, I turn it into a game. So I get a whole load of other socks or pants or balls, or it doesn't actually really matter what it is, but I just chuck them all on the floor and then he will. Typically. It might take a while, but he'll typically leave that one and come and play his game and put everything else in the box, not that one. He never starts with that one as he's stolen, but eventually, once you put enough in, you can send him for the one that you're such an amazing owner.

Lauren Langman: 17:29

I listen and I'm like, oh R Rupert, you're so blooming lucky. If only you realised it like such, such and I get that's not how how dogs think and dogs work and dogs brains work, but he's so, so, so, so, so lucky to have an owner like you, because I know in so many hands he would have been put to sleep and I think that so many owners he would never have made a family dog easily, I think, even with brilliant dog training, I think that he was, um, certainly a dog that was destined for, for trouble, and so he's. You know what he's? He's had a difficult, I'd say. His genetics are very difficult, um, so I think that space is there, plus early upbringing, not pre-u, and so we've got lots of things we're going against, and I think genetics are something that are very hard to to completely, um, right, like, like, change the script on and at the same time, you're doing such a great job here.

Karen: 18:17

So, karen, tell us another thing that you do with reaper as a trick around resource guarding um, less of a trick and more of a game, but toy switch actually does help as well. Um so, again, it wouldn't necessarily work in the situation, but it's a game or a trick or whatever you want to call it. That really kind of skills them up for the situation and because you tend to play with toys and you tend to play in slightly higher arousal, it gets that kind of disengaging thinking brain happening in slightly higher levels of excitement. But I do also know where to pitch it, and this is from resource guarding experience as well. So there is one super duper high, high, high value squeaky tug toy which is made with rabbit fur, which was one of his very early toys, and I've learned never to switch with that because even if I had to do the same, that pitches him so high that he then can't switch.

Lauren Langman: 19:09

Yeah it's almost not useful. You take him to a space.

Karen: 19:11

It's not useful, yeah but frisbees or socks, lots of things we've done it with and it's just a really good. You play with this one, it goes dead. You play with this one, it goes dead. Switch, switch, switch. And then, before the arousal kicks too high, we stop and then he'll have a Kong or a Scassafied or something to bring him back down again.

Lauren Langman: 19:32

Oh, such a lucky dog. He's such a lucky dog. Now. I'm thinking anybody that's listening you might have experienced some level of resource guarding struggles yourself. We have our 10 days to stop resource guarding and in that course, I know that you're going to see lots of opportunities for progression for your dog, but also lots of opportunities that you, as an owner, can improve. It's just 27 pound. It's to all of our listeners right now, so it's a mega, mega mega discount. It's from 97. Now owners that are listening.

Lauren Langman: 19:58

Karen, I think this is really, really key. If you are an owner listening and I think there are loads of you guys out there and you might share it you might be one of the pro dog trainers that wants to share it with all of your students. So that is great, great free learning for them. I think one of the biggest things we've got to do is train ourself to do the opposite of what our dogs are almost begging us to do. Right, they're bringing you the thing and telling you they've got it, and they're looking at you like I'm going to crunch this, um, or they're kind of happily dancing around whilst you're going.

Lauren Langman: 20:26

Oh, my god, that's my like brand new remote or that's my brand new, whatever it is, or that's the thing I really don't want you to have. Or in fact, one um student's dog got hold of a wedding ring. So I've had a student's dog have a wedding ring and that was um dramatic, for sure, and quite traumatic for the owners until it came out, and actually a whole adventure of investigating poo for like a week. But the owner is important here, like how do you, as an owner, offer the self-control that you're, because it's not automatic to do the opposite of what you want to do when these scenarios happen?

Karen: 21:05

right? No, it's not. And actually my dad has been bitten because he has done what is the natural thing to do, which is see that Rupert's picked up some rubbish on a walk and try and take it from him, whereas actually what you need to do is the exact opposite, that you need to not give any indication that you're remotely bothered to be eating something disgusting. Um, whereas my inclination, if I wasn't thinking, would be to kind of tighten the lead, try and pull him away from it. That makes him dig in harder. So you actually really have to relax and then just kind of loosen everything off. I don't care what you're eating, don't?

Lauren Langman: 21:39

care you can be eating all of the disgusting things, and you really have told me some disgusting things. Oh, he's eaten some really disgusting things and they've been in his beard, which actually gives me like pretty sick feeling right now, like I'm feeling pretty ill. I don't think you've even heard the worst one, but it's not for the vodka. Oh God, don't. Literally, I can imagine. And the thing with Roo is that you are so good at just being like, yeah, I'm not bothered, but deep down you are bothered.

Karen: 22:02

I am bothered because he's probably eating. I mean, he's got allergies as well, so best case, he's probably eating something that's going to make him itch, because even if he was eating some sirloin steak it would make him itch. So you've got that consideration. Most often it's not sirloin steak, it's something way more disgusting. So I don't want him eating that. I put a lot of effort into giving him a good diet. I don't want him eating something rancid off the street. It could be dangerous.

Lauren Langman: 22:31

I had a recent student's dog that ate cannabis, so it made itself really really pretty ill and found cannabis on the street. I don't know who was throwing cannabis, but hey, there you go, um, and so this dog had found cannabis and or hiding cannabis, I don't know um, and and the thing is that this dog ate it and um was immediately, pretty much within an hour, was in vet hospital under serious medical care. Uh, fitting um and pretty pretty um death door did make it and has come out and completely fine. But those are the sorts of things that can happen when your dog's out there and eating things from the street and then you have to be really nonchalant and not bothered and be kind of casual about the scenario, right, yeah, definitely you have to pretend that you do not care and it is not a big deal, and sometimes a little bit of a here scatter feed will eventually kind of do the bringing the brain somewhere else thing.

Karen: 23:23

Um, but it has to be. Well, there's some food if you want it. It's got to be so genuine, it's so genuine.

Lauren Langman: 23:30

I think this is where most people go wrong. So most people, when I've been in a day-to-day training situation with them, they throw the piece in the food. They're like what's this, what's this, what's this? Look at this, look at this nice. Look at this nice food. Look at this nice food. And the second, the dog, comes over to it. You can see all of that person's energy and intention at the other thing and they've suddenly become like oh, the other thing is free, let me dash to the other thing. And I'm like you really can't be anywhere near the other thing until that dog's out of that scenario. So that dog has to be in a completely different space. Whether that's my vehicle, whether that's another room, whether that's a crate, whether that's a pen, whether it's a gate, I prefer they can't even see. I prefer they can't even see.

Lauren Langman: 24:04

Sniff or hear me, because some dogs I absolutely know that Liza's little dog, katie would know exactly what you were doing. She'd know that you're walking there. She'd sense exactly where you were in the space, in the house. She wouldn't have to see you. She wouldn't have to see you. She wouldn't have to see you. And then next time you ask her to trade something she's got, that learning history and the fact that you didn't trade it appropriately last time and you went back and got that hedgehog, and she knows it because that hedgehog had gone and she'd be in the house for a good week or two after looking to see that that hedgehog might have come back or might be back in that space. And those are those dogs with that like learning, memory patterning. Uh, they're difficult for owners to manage.

Karen: 24:38

Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier on the fact that he is super duper, duper quick to pair things, but only negative things or things you don't want him to pair, whereas learning, making a pairing, that's actually a positive, helpful one, that that's a bit lacking, um but so interesting, isn't it?

Karen: 24:57

I think that pairing is so interesting what I have noticed, I think, is that by playing all the games and by doing what we do and by managing the situations in the way that we do and by skilling him up, even when you're in those situations and you feel like, actually, why is this not doing what I want it to do? What is he really not learning anything? He will mentally disengage from stuff a lot quicker than he used to do, so I can pick stuff up a lot quicker and actually, once he's been engaged somewhere else whether that's because I've given him a chew or I've given him something appropriate or he's doing something else he's actually not that bothered about the thing anymore so he's once, he's re-employed, and that sort of learning and history now and that sort of layer on layer on layer of good foundation because you haven't put yourself in that situation.

Lauren Langman: 25:44

I think that's that's really key. So for someone with a resource guard, I'm going to say please, please, please, get out there. It's £27. Get the stop resource guarding opportunity here. It's 10 days to stop resource guarding, it's just £27. It's to you as a Sex and Squirrel listener. Go and get it, Karen. For anybody that's considering it do games work? Is what we do at Games Club going to help? Is the fact that these guys can get a 10-day course going to support them? How do they go?

Karen: 26:10

forward? Yeah, absolutely, and actually I mean, all the 10-day courses are brilliant, so whatever struggle they've got, they should get one that matches that struggle. But I think this one is particularly good. It's got so much in it and I think, even if you don't have a resource guarding dog, it's a good one to get because it really makes you think about it. There's a lovely lady.

Lauren Langman: 26:28

She came on the resource guarding sessions that we were teaching and she said you know what? When I heard it was resource guarding, I really was quite disappointed. I thought it'd be very boring. But she said this was so much fun, I learned loads. And I learned no, it's not for my own dog, but actually for all of the dogs I've worked with, and my own dog she's like. I learned for a lot of different dogs, a lot of different scenarios. I think this is something we should know for life. With handling dogs, if you handle dogs in any capacity, if you work with dogs in any capacity, if you um teach other people with dogs, definitely if you own a resource guard, 100% and I think this is quite interesting to say. But how early did you know he was a resource guard?

Karen: 27:49

I was quite early naive owner. I think he was my first dog. I didn't know a lot. There were things I didn't do as well as I could have done if I'd known better when I first had him, but the signs were there really early.

Lauren Langman: 28:01

I think that's the thing. The signs are there and the signs are often there. Now I have typically this is an odd one. I've seen it in a lot of red dogs and I don't know what that's about. I haven't looked into that, I haven't. I'm not saying anything there at all, other than I've seen a lot of red dogs with resource guarding struggles and one of my very first clients, who was a resource guard, she came to me as a seven-month-old Hungarian Vigila puppy, beautiful, beautiful dog.

Lauren Langman: 28:24

Her owner is now one of my very best friends. She has since passed. She died at nearly 18. And so I taught her for many years we did agility. She was a great, great dog. I loved working with her.

Lauren Langman: 28:35

Her name was Lyra and she was a beautiful Vigila, one of the most beautiful, probably the most beautiful Vigila I have ever worked with and met. And what I really noticed with her is that her early upbringing the owners very quickly became scared of her. So when she would grab something and growl, they would back off and they didn't really know what to do. And quite quickly, the behaviorists they work with and there are so many people out there that call themselves behaviorists and for me I actually just want to work with a great dog trainer who has skills and emotional capacity for a dog. I actually I'm not necessarily looking for the fact they're a behaviorist or not. In fact there are many behaviorists out there that I would be concerned that they are calling themselves behaviorists. So For me it's good emotional capacity to work with a dog and good training, grounding and knowledge and actually skills handling and working with dogs. I think that for me is number one.

Lauren Langman: 29:29

But this behaviourist had said basically every time Lyra gets near a resource and does anything like this, pick her up and remove her from a situation very quickly. You can see how that played out Sort of 11 year old I think Lizzie was at the time 11 year old girl bitten by the dog. Sort of 11-year-old I think Lizzie was at the time 11-year-old girl bitten by the dog. She picked the puppy up, moved out of the situation, become sort of quite quickly scared of the dog once the dog started nipping, biting and actually quite hard, aggressive, growling and coming forward at people, and so she then disliked the dog and she wanted her mum to rehome the dog, as did her sister, because they thought the dog was nuts.

Lauren Langman: 29:52

But you can see how the typical family is advised badly in these scenarios and actually almost writes the future by following very, very outdated, archaic, um nutty advice. Really go pick a dog up that is growling, warning you and telling you they don't like something. And so there are so many things that maybe you don't read, little things that people could look for with resource guarders. Let's just do a couple of like tips tennis on them. For me I'm going to say stillness, so stillness around resources. What would you say?

Karen: 30:21

um, well, as you mentioned growling, if you, if you go near him or a dog who has got something and they're communicating verbally that they don't want you near, then that is the first stage of a warning that you don't want to escalate beyond that absolutely.

Lauren Langman: 30:35

And growling, growling for me, I almost celebrate the fact the dog growls because at least they warn me. I remember being taught by uh behaviorists a long, long time ago and they said, basically to correct poppy growling, and very quickly it went from growling to biting, with no warning, and that for me was such a massive awakening. And the other one, I would say for lots of you guys, an ability to disengage from a toy so skittle. She doesn't really resource guard with me and I say yet, and that's because she's a two-year-old dog like that can, that can grow, and when she's got hold of something she isn't always able to let it go. And that for me is, uh, while she's not growling over it and really possessing it or doing anything, that worries me.

Lauren Langman: 31:12

There's a real level of complete obsession with something. I was playing something the other day with a turtle and quite quickly, uh, in this session I was playing with the turtle, she became very, very obsessed with the turtle and then did not want to let the turtle go, to the point she pulled the turtle's eye off. The turtle is not a real turtle, it's a little model for your like hand grip thing. But I think that's massive, isn't it, but I think that's really quite interesting, as the dog is not able to let this go so effectively. She wouldn't have been able to toy switch or she wouldn't have been able to do any of these things. The other thing she did was she showed me a different look from her eye. What would you say about eyes and resource guarding?

Karen: 31:44

yeah, your kind of sidey eye or whale eye, the kind of I know you're there, I'm looking at you and I'm not happy at all and my face is showing you. I'm not happy at all.

Lauren Langman: 31:54

Back off woman yeah, and it is, and that's exactly the little face. It's like take this thing off me and I kill you silent but violent, and sometimes I'll get that from her and I'm like, oh, interesting, and for me again, like I said, she's never resource guarded like in the traditional growling or any of those senses. But I can see the warnings and these are things that people say. I never believed it. I didn't see any warnings. There was not a warning to this and you're like, no, they warned you at every stage, you just weren't listening, like you weren't listening. So those are some of the things we might see typically. And another thing would be desperate to get back to a space. So they're desperate to rush back to a space. So maybe you've let them out for a wee and they've followed you, like dutifully, but the second they're in, they're back at a space or they're back in a certain um sort of area of the house.

Karen: 32:35

I see that as well or they take their things to a corner out kind of out of the way.

Lauren Langman: 32:40

Sit on them yeah, I've also seen that like put them under poppy would put things under herself and then like gather them another early warning with rupert, which I didn't really understand at the time.

Karen: 32:50

He used to be a dog who I could send to a dog sitter who had other dogs. I don't do that anymore, it's just he doesn't have the skills for that just now. But he had an issue with the dog sitter's own dog being affectionate with his owner. Rupert didn't like that at all, so effectively guarding the person and that's what I find really interesting.

Lauren Langman: 33:14

So some of the dogs that I've worked with professionally here at the training center and also online through our games club, through our pro dog trainer club actually they'll even resource got a space. So a space is enough, or a space near a doorway, or a space near a sofa, or a space near something and something of meaning to them. So there is some level of pairing and sometimes you don't even know the pairing. So, uh, the funniest one that I had was a lady that rang me and just was like help, I cannot get out of my kitchen. Basically, my dogs are guarding the living room. It's my only door out of the house.

Lauren Langman: 33:42

I've got an sos here like I need the police or I need someone to help me and you're a dog trainer, you've been recommended get me out of here. And of course there's the get her out of there in the interim. But there is also the deep and meaningful conversation that this training has to happen for life and I think that so many people get that part wrong that there is a level of management and awareness and awakening at least that this can be a volatile situation. Now you touched on at the beginning that Rupert had bitten. Is that something that's a regular occurrence or is this something that's very, very manageable with the right strategies, through what we do here, through games?

Karen: 34:11

yeah, it's not regular at all. Um, and I would say it's when I've mismanaged it or when somebody less aware of rupert and less kind of savvy with dogs generally has handled him. Um, I can manage it and I know what to do and what not to do. I know what his triggers are. I'm fairly careful about what I leave around. If I've left something around that he's got hold of, then that's my fault I love that you're on it for your responsibility versus his responsibility.

Lauren Langman: 34:40

You know he's not capable of certain things, so you know he's not capable and so actually that's not his responsibility. Same as I know for Eliza, for example, today she wanted to go shopping and when I thought about it and I thought about where that was going, I was like actually I know that you're not capable of making this decision, that you don't have the money to spend as to where we're going and you also really have a lot of other jobs to do. Those are the things we need to prioritize. Sometimes you've got to make the adult decision in the relationship.

Karen: 35:03

now, karen, I know you're a phenomenal owner for for him, but anyone who's out there listening any final words to to say for them as to what they can do going forward or how they can proceed, or even just words of encouragement well, I think, first of all, if you do have a dog who struggles, like Rupert does and like lots of other dogs do, um, you can definitely make a difference, um, and it's probably you that needs to change potentially as much as the dog just in terms of how you're managing it and how you're seeing it, um, and find ways to put fun into it, because it does make what's really quite a tricky situation feel a lot more lighthearted Mary Poppins would definitely advise, wouldn't she?

Lauren Langman: 35:42

In every job that must be done, there certainly can be an element of fun. So that was this episode of the Sex and Squirrel podcast. Thank you, karen, for joining us. Amazing opportunity Resource guarding. Please, please, please, share this episode. Share it with friends, family, dog lovers, your father, your sister, your mother, your brother, your long lost lover. Ensure you share it and we'll see you next time. Remember, stay sexy you.