Lauren Langman: 0:09

Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel podcast. I'm Lauren Langman. I'm one of the world's leading dog trainers and it's my mission to help owners become their dog's top priority. In each episode, you'll discover how to gain trust and communicate with your dog like never before, creating unbreakable bonds that make you the most exciting part of their world. Oh my god, pulling. Pulling is one of my absolute pet hates when you're being yanked in one direction or the other, your arms out of its socket and even a little dog can well skittles pulls me everywhere. What do you think about dogs pulling on lead? Wonderful, dave.

Dave Hibbert: 0:47

I'm with you. I hate it, I can't stand it. I just can't abide by a dog dragging me everywhere. And I think sometimes it's not about. I think sometimes it can be an ego thing oh, the dog's dragging you everywhere, but it's not that. I just don't like it. I don't like the look of it, I don't like the feel of it.

Lauren Langman: 1:08

I think the majority of our listeners here Sex and the Squirrel podcast hello guys, I'm super pleased you're here, super pleased you're listening the majority of you guys as listeners.

Lauren Langman: 1:17

I know you'll hate it too. As pet owners, you're going to dislike it. Now I'm going to give you a couple of examples here, because both Dave and I have working dogs and with working dogs sometimes it can become a little bit acceptable because they're pulling you to their work or they're pulling you to someone, dave, in the police or in some form of services or military, or they're pulling you to get into the agility ring or they're pulling you to do fly ball or whatever else it might be. But what I've really learned is that when Skittles goes into that crazy pull mode, I actually have very little of a brain anyway and I actually often when I do go to work and she's in that mode, there's actually not a lot to work Like she's actually missing many pieces and she actually isn't as cognitive as I need her. Now, dave, I think if we do a bit of tips tennis on pulling, alongside maybe some stories and I know you've got a story because you've raised police dogs and dogs for services and military Would you like to share your story?

Dave Hibbert: 2:13

Yeah, I think it's a really interesting one. So, and it revolves around pulling. So when I, when I first started getting involved in kind of raising puppies and dogs, I got given this dog and the instruction when I got given it was like take this dog everywhere, let him drag you everywhere. We want to build confidence and we want the dog to be doing this, and so that was fine. You know, I knew about dog training. I thought it was a little bit strange, but anyway, I went with the flow and basically I had this dog, german Shepherd, literally dragging me everywhere and anywhere, um, taking it to the park, walking anywhere. He was just dragging me and that's reasonably okay because the dog, when he was an adult dog, only weighed kind of 27 kilos. So for a german shepherd that's quite small and dainty, um.

Dave Hibbert: 3:03

And then I kind of got my next dog that I was developing again same sort of routine. The dog, you know, was a little bit bigger but I could still manage it. But then by the third one, um, this dog was 27, 28 kilos when he was six months old. And so it got to the point where I was just like I just a my body can't take it and b, this can't. This just doesn't make any sense to have a dog dragging you everywhere and all this kind of stuff.

Dave Hibbert: 3:29

So I started talking, teaching him, um, loose lead walking so not necessarily like formal heel work or anything like that, just I just wanted to be able to take the dog to the park with a loose lead and and I was lambasted like oh my god, you're gonna kill the dog's drive and you can't possibly get the dog to do this. And it was a really really strange situation. Um, but suffice to say it didn't alter his ability to go and be a really good working police dog and catch bad people and save lives of vulnerable people. And then, when I started kind of really delving into it, actually what I saw was the more kind of control you have over the dog actually, the better the dog is at the other end when you want it to be explosive and you want it to be doing the things you want to do. So yeah, that was kind of my introduction to realizing that the kind of we've always done it this way approach wasn't necessarily the right approach.

Lauren Langman: 4:30

Amazing, and it really does. It makes sense, doesn't it? When you've got like a small dog pulling. Then we kind of get to a space where we either tolerate it or it's achievable or doable and it's not like going to hurt anyone, Whereas actually you start to get to some of those like I mean I'll be really frank here, skittles at seven kilos is sometimes too much for me Like the way she will pull, like she will pull, like she is sled dogging, and it hurts my body, it hurts my brain. It actually becomes quite exhausting. It certainly takes any joy out of walking for me. So I don't know about you, but I, I don't enjoy that. Walking like that doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel like you've got any connection with the dog that you're working or walking with no, I agree.

Dave Hibbert: 5:10

Just, and it makes it stressful and, like you touched upon, you know, the dog's arousal level is so high when it's pulling, because a lot of dogs actually enjoy the sensation of the of the pull, um. And so when you think about the abcs, the arousal level is so high that actually they're not even thinking really. They're just so motivated and determined to pull. It just doesn't become enjoyable or an enjoyable experience all around.

Lauren Langman: 5:37

And I think that's one of the biggies for me. So let's go with some tips, because I know we can talk about the problem and go round and round and round and round on the problem, but actually what are the tips? What are the things that we can do? What are the things we can do to help? And I'm going to start with a game that I play with Skittle, and I'm very happy for you to share any of yours, dave, because I know you've worked with thousands of officers. I know you've worked with thousands of dogs.

Lauren Langman: 5:56

One of my first ones is if your dog is pulling you, let's not keep walking, let's stop the reinforcement from happening. And so for me, if the dog is really yanking and going, I will just plant myself. I'm like, planted like a tree and not one of those trees that waves around in the storm. I'm actually going to be planted and you ain't moving me and I will stop. And if I need to anchor myself by grabbing something, depending on the dog I'm holding, I'll stop. And I'll stop to the point that the dog has to kind of stop and acknowledge me too, like I'm not going to continue walking a yanking dog. We'll talk about what we might do afterwards in a minute, but that would be my number one. How about?

Dave Hibbert: 6:32

you, dave. I think a lot of it is controlling that environment, and I think the problem sometimes is people feel a little bit stupid when they're dog training, don't they? And you've got to? You know, my favourite saying is if you don't feel stupid, you're not doing it right, and very often that stops people from doing the right thing.

Dave Hibbert: 6:48

So you know, if you've just walked out your front door and all of a sudden you're stop it and your neighbors are looking out the window, it's, it's a difficult place to be, isn't it where actually, sometimes I would say just, just, if you can put the dog in the car, drive to where you need to go, ie, if you go to the park, drive to the park and then do some of those exercises, because then it takes away that kind of self-consciousness about people watching. You take three hours to walk to the park, um, to walk the dog, and sometimes what's needed for the dog is that, that approach, but people are so self-conscious that it kind of blocks their ability to to deliver it. So, yeah, I I would always say, if, if you are that person that feels a little bit self-conscious, just pop the dog in the car and get to where you need to get to and then then do, then do what you've just suggested away from those nosy neighbors I think that's massive dave and I know it's one of the ones that we topped.

Lauren Langman: 7:42

We touched on the 10 days to stop pulling. So we touched on um with the 10 days to stop pulling, that being exactly one of one of the real issues. One of the issues there is and me, for maybe slightly different reasons, I will drive a dog anywhere to go and train them rather than give them the opportunity to rehearse, what I don't want. So all the time you're walking to the park, you're under pressure. You've got maybe a time pressure, like you said, maybe the neighbor's watching, maybe um, something um needs to happen in in the interim, but actually that really isn't and they get, they're getting to the, which is the reinforcer. So for me, I would do exactly what you said and I would drive there, and so I'd split that up. I would look at my mechanics and, effectively, my transitions, and that is a transition. It's how I'm getting from A to B. So it's a transition. So I'm like, right, I'm just going to drive to the park and when I get to the park I can do five minutes boundary games, I can do all the other fun things that we play absolute dogs in the games club and in pro dog trainer club and and certainly in the 10 days to stop pulling. Um opportunity course 27 pound lifetime access like it's a mega steal.

Lauren Langman: 8:43

And I would say if that was me, that would probably be my single like if your dog is rehearsing pulling, stop it, work out why they're pulling you there and work out how you can break it up. So I love that you said just put them in the car, let's not actually have that battle there. Let's get to the park and do 10 minutes walking when we get to the park. Or let's get to the park and not put them on lead so you're not even having that moment of stress, or let's have them on a long line. But what we don't want to do is we don't want to allow them to continue the reinforcement and know that when the dog is yanking to the park it is reinforcing because it's behavior that's continuing to happen and it's being reinforced by getting to the park right yeah, definitely.

Dave Hibbert: 9:26

I think, like you you just touched upon, when you're at the park, it just takes the pressure off a little bit. So one of the things I would do, as you suggested, is, when you start off, start off with a long lead, because the dog's got to be quite far away from you in order to pull on it and feel the tension. So you know when we're working with dogs, you know very often it would be on a long line. So actually you can build that engagement, you can build that focus and these are all the things you need to then overcome the, the pulling, um, but yeah, definitely, having the dog on a on a longer line is the way forward. Because what?

Dave Hibbert: 10:02

What you generally see is a lot of people actually make the line shorter in order to try and pull the dog back, but actually what happens is that makes it, that makes it worse, um, and then you see things like people putting harnesses on dogs and and then actually all that happens is then the dog's weight is spread across the dog's chest so that now they can pull even even stronger, more determined and whilst I do use harnesses, my way just to clarify for everyone would always be a front clip, a back clip, or a front clip, a collar, or a back clip, a collar.

Lauren Langman: 10:33

So actually what we're doing with harnesses, if you're using a harness, is you are, um, getting a level of connection on a two-end lead. If I put my back clip on my dogs, it's sled dog running time, so it means pull. So my back clip means go ahead, eat your heart out. We're pulling. I typically use it when I'm walking up a hill very top technique for getting you up a hill fast. So my dogs, I'm going up a hill Very top technique for getting you up a hill fast. So my dogs. When I'm going up a hill, I'm like, whack it on off, they go. But actually, you're right, your toolkit is probably worth touching base on. So my toolkit I personally like a flat collar.

Lauren Langman: 11:06

I will use a harness on some dogs, but it would be to use a front clip, back clip or a front clip, head collar or front clip, collar or back clip. It's a front clip, head collar or front clip, collar or back clip. It's a double clip situation. So it's to give myself a double clip situation and then, um, I have in the past, I would say, used um head collars. I typically don't use head collars unless I've got a really eye dog, a very, very eye driven dog, and so I will use a head collar if I need two of those. But my preference is a flat collar and a long line, or a flat collar and a lead, and and I know yours is too, dave, um, because I mean Tokyo had the best loose lead walking for me and I think the biggest thing was he never learned to pull. He never, ever learned how to pull. So because he didn't know how to pull, he didn't ever rehearse it. Does that make sense?

Dave Hibbert: 11:45

yeah, definitely, I think that's the big thing. You know when, when you've got the ability to shape a dog from the start, then absolutely you'd never give them the opportunity to learn how to pull and what pulling feels like. Um. So, but yeah, definitely, the the long, long line and a and a flat collar for me is is what I would always use. Um, because you want to, ideally you want to teach the dog to do it properly. Um, as in, let the dog learn to loose, lead, walk no matter what they're wearing. Um, and I think that's the key. Sometimes people get so fixated on different things to almost give the dog the cue of what you want that sometimes you forget that actually you can train the dog to the cue you're giving him or her, depending on the situation I've watched.

Lauren Langman: 12:32

I've watched you training like 10, 15 police dogs in a field and you'd like park up and it's rock up and everyone might think that you're just going to go get the baddies and go bring the baddies down. But you actually will do sessions and lessons where you're just doing lead walking. So actually there's these like big, bad sort of police dogs that are like just they're practicing their loose leash and I really like that because sometimes I saw you use it as a way of like bringing the arousal down and other times I saw you as a way of just relationship building with a new handler. That was definitely something I saw you doing with um, malinois, german Shepherds, um, as well as actually even the Spaniels. I did see you doing a little bit with Spaniels, but typically with the Belgian Shepherds and the, the um Shepherd, the Shepherds, the German Shepherds, the German Shepherds. It was big.

Dave Hibbert: 13:15

Yeah, it's a really big thing for me. I think one thing it really portrays, especially when you're talking about, you know, professional working dog handlers is, you know, the ability to have a dog that just walks, not necessarily, you know, in an obedient style heel work routine, but a dog that just walks next to you with a loose lead, is is really professional. And and one of the things I'd say is, you know, again, very often the old, old school thing was oh, if you've got the spaniels and the search dogs, just let them drag you everywhere and pull you everywhere, and I just don't think it looks professional. You know, we, if we're working on a, an event such as, I don't know, like the queen's funeral we did, or the g7 world leaders conference, and you've got a dog dragging you to the start of the search and you've got dignitaries and people, um, watching.

Dave Hibbert: 14:01

I just don't think it's very professional, um, and then, on the flip side, you know, with the general purpose dogs, you know the dogs that go out and bite people. Then I think that's even more important because, for example, if you're, if you've just deployed your dog from the car and you end up, you know two, three, four, five hundred meters away from the car. The dog's just bitten someone or detained someone and now you've got to walk back to the car again. You want that dog to be walking in a in a way that shows that you're professional and in control of of the dog. You don't want a dog that's kind of on the end of the lead like a whirling devilish dog. Um, that just looks unprofessional they need to be.

Lauren Langman: 14:41

They need to, they need to be under control. I mean, at the end of the day, the law is the dog is under control and if your dog's not under control and for me a dog, it's lunging, barking, whirling and spinning it's not under control and our law especially, um, I'd say it's got stricter and stricter, and sometimes rightly so, for sure, um, but it would be that a dog needs to be in control and if dogs not in control or under control, then actually they're deemed potentially dangerous under the dangerous dogs act and I think we do need to consider that. When I I I have been worried a few times. I've seen a couple of very large dogs, one Neapolitan Mastiff and the other was a dog's Bordeaux, and where they've really dragged their owners towards me and the me was me and three of my dogs, and I know that they're interested in my three dogs. However, are they scary when they do that? Yeah, they're pretty scary and for me, I know that you can feel very uncomfortable if there's an owner that's out of control.

Lauren Langman: 15:33

So if owners haven't got control of, like the Neapolitan Mastiffs and I'm not saying just those breeds, I'm saying all breeds but if your owner hasn't got control. I know there are some people I'm like, yeah, eat your heart out, have as many dogs as you like, you know they're under control, whereas some people I would say are really outdogged. Kilo dog doesn't really matter. Is the owner outdogged? And what I mean by outdogged is do they have too much dog on the end of a lead or too much dog that they own?

Dave Hibbert: 15:59

and I think we see that quite commonly yeah, I think it's a really good point and, like you said, you know, biscuit, my little dog is.

Dave Hibbert: 16:05

She's only nine kilos but, boy, she can she pull it if, if I let her.

Dave Hibbert: 16:10

Um, but I think you make a really good point around. You know the perception of, you know, dogs out of control. So, for example, if you pulled up on a car park and you get your dog out of the car and it's pulling you everywhere and dragging you everywhere and all of a sudden it nips somebody, you know, when they come back and look at the CCTV from that car park to see the incident, then immediately someone will go well, you, you didn't have control over that dog from the moment you got out of the car, as opposed to you know a dog coming out of the car under control, walking nicely next to you. If it then goes and nips someone, the perception of that whole incident is going to be very different based on what people see on that cctv. So it's not just a kind of lifestyle problem in terms of not an enjoyable walk and all the other stuff, but actually, you know, there's that perception piece and hopefully no one ever gets into that position, but there's also the legality piece as well.

Lauren Langman: 17:03

Absolutely, and that legality bit is huge. Like I said, it's dangerous dogs act, it's welfare, it's everything. It's for the happiness of society. Now if we do a couple of favourite games one of my favourite games, dave, that I play with Skittle Skittle obviously is bonkers and she's my worst lead pulling dog I've ever owned Like I haven't owned anything at lead pools like her.

Lauren Langman: 17:23

She's like a husky, she like gets really determined and she like digs in as well, like she really digs in, like she can get like really light and she can like get like really light and she can choke herself.

Lauren Langman: 17:32

And so she really is quite a gritty puller and I think I taught some of it accidentally by getting her to race to toys on lead and then she like races to life on lead, and so one of my favorite tricks with her is if I'm out and about and I'm walking and I've got some of her daily food on me, I throw a piece of food behind me and I let her catch up to heel position.

Lauren Langman: 17:49

I throw a piece of food behind me and I let her catch up to her position. So I do loads of that when I'm out with her, partly because I like to see if I've got her brain still, and partly because I use part of her daily food and partly because I think it's a nice relationship game and partly because it puts reinforcement zone sort of at my trouser leg seam line. That's where I want her and I want her to learn that actually this is a reinforcement space. So I throw the food away, reward her back. Throw the food away but reward her back. But I always throw the food behind me. Um, how about?

Dave Hibbert: 18:21

you have you got any sort of other tips or other games or anything you like to do with your guys? Yeah, I think I think the big one for for me is that kind of engagement with with a toy, whether it be a rag or whether it be a ball, whether it be a kong, um, because I'd always build that in a dog, you know, whether it's a pet dog or working dog, that that's. I'd want to build, that motivation for whatever toy kind of turns them on. And so you know it's. It's a case really of luring the dog by showing them the toy and if they take a few steps next to you, um, in a good way, then they're just rewarded with the, with the toy and again, the placement of that toy. I'll be throwing it kind of over the back of their head so they almost have to back up a little bit and catch the toy.

Dave Hibbert: 18:58

And that's really important because you know, sometimes I see people throwing the toy forward and all of a sudden the dog then lunges forward and is reinforced for pulling on the lead. So it is about those mechanics and making sure your toy, your reward placement is good, but similar sort of thing to the food. But I like to use toys, I like to get the dog motivated. But again, sometimes you can have the fallout of that is, the dog's arousal level gets quite high quite quickly and so, like I say, that's why if you've driven to the park and you're away from the environment and you're just focusing on the training session for loose lead walking, then actually you can do some very little small repetitions and then let the dog back on the line and and doing their own thing, not pulling and I like that with um, the 10 days course.

Lauren Langman: 19:45

If you've got the 10 days course, go get it and have a look at it and dive in. If you haven't got the 10 days, to stop pulling, course, lifetime access 27. What I like, dave, is it gives us lots of little options, little games like that, like your little raggy game, my little food game. Lots of little options that you can play and ultimately build a dog who wants to be close to you. And I think probably one of the happy side effects when you teach your dogs to stop pulling, you actually teach your dog to want to be with you, and so for me, it enhances recall, it enhances relationship, it enhances proximity, enhances a dog who generally wants to hang out with you. What do you think?

Dave Hibbert: 20:19

I, I totally agree, and one of the things I always talk about is teaching your dog the art of doing nothing. And I think this falls into that same category, because very often we we put the dog on a lead because we're going to do something. We're either going to the park, or we're taking them out to the toilet, or we're going to the start of an agility, or you know we might be going out to do some bike work exercises. So the dog instantly thinks, as soon as that lead comes on, they're going to do something. Um, whereas I place a lot of emphasis on, you know, the lead goes on and we actually teach the dog the art of doing nothing, and so we almost break that expectation that the dog is going somewhere or going to do something, and that's a really big thing for me. It's something I've placed a great emphasis on more recently. You know, the art of doing nothing is key.

Lauren Langman: 21:06

I love it, really love it. Well, guys, it's Stop Pulling. If you haven't already, go grab the Stop Pulling course. I really, really, really know you're going to love it. £27 lifetime access. It's reduced from £97. So it's a real bargain. I hope you've enjoyed Dave and I chatting pulling. We know you can solve it. We've solved it and we know you can do it too, especially with us supporting you. Guys, make it an amazing day and we'll see you next week for another round of the sexier than a squirrel podcast.