Speaker 1: 0:09

Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel podcast. I'm Lauren Langman. I'm one of the world's leading dog trainers and it's my mission to help owners become their dog's top priority. In each episode, you'll discover how to gain trust and communicate with your dog like never before, creating unbreakable bonds that make you the most exciting part of their world. Big dogs on lead alice, I know that your dog's big enough to pull you over. What breed are you walking and how is this even possible?

Speaker 2: 0:39

so, yes, bonnie is my uh 40d kilo mega mastiff mixed. So, yes, she's more than capable of pulling me over and has in the past, and so walking on lead has been a team effort and I'm happy to say that we are now in a space where we can go out together walking nicely as a team, but there's been a lot of games between now and where we started and when you think about this one, I know that I've seen a very big dog on lead.

Speaker 1: 1:14

I saw a dog to bordeaux at crufts tow its owner over and its owner was probably in there, I'd know 90 kilos and this dog probably in its 60, 70 kilos and towed this man over. I mean towed when it put brute force in. It was on a flat collar. It towed and a lot of people would say games are not going to work for a big breed and they're certainly not going to work for getting a dog to walk nicely on a lead when they're that bigger breed or they're that type of dog. What would you say?

Speaker 2: 1:42

exactly the opposite.

Speaker 2: 1:45

So I I can completely understand that there would be that assumption that actually a big dog needs firm handling, you know, needs asserting who's boss and all the rest of it, and I can understand why that would be a very human assumption to make and that was never going to work for me because I barely outweigh Bonnie Muscle, was never going to be a part of our relationship or, you know, sort of me being sort of dominant or kind of any of those kind of things.

Speaker 2: 2:24

That just it's just it's not me, it's not how I comport myself in any other any other aspect of my life. And so for me it was always going to be about actually building a relationship with this dog, having teamwork with this dog, having her want to work with me, want to move with me, me and for us to have that awareness of each other and cooperation. And it's just so much more pleasant to be able to build that and to be able to play games with my dog and build those skills and build that teamwork dog and build those skills and build that teamwork. I'd I'd choose that anyway over any kind of more kind of rough and ready kind of methods.

Speaker 1: 3:13

Um, so yeah, games all the way so I am all in on that and for me, I know I'm all in, but have you had any before you started playing games or before you kind of really got on board? Have you had any scary moments or moments where potentially she has pulled you or you've really felt the brute force of a dog that's really towing in the opposite direction?

Speaker 2: 3:32

yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 3:34

I think, um, like a kind of a couple of times where, um, we were just kind of learning that she was really not very comfortable when sort of in close proximity to dogs.

Speaker 2: 3:47

She didn't know, and I got pulled over in the park a couple of times, a bit painful, a bit embarrassing, a bit scary for other people in the environment, and so we, we definitely kind of put a stop to me solo walking, uh, whilst we couldn't guarantee that we could do that safely and we didn't have the skills as a team to be able to do that, um, and yeah, I mean I, she's never hospitalized me, but definitely, um, you know it's, I'd say it's come close. So definitely, definitely, has kind of um ended up with kind of really nasty bruises all down my arm and kind of, you know, quite a bit of pain on one occasion, um. So, yeah, it's definitely not something to be taken lightly. Um, um, but um, you know, all of these, all these struggles, can be sort of broken down into well, actually, which skills is the dog lacking and how do we actually teach those skills to a point where now she can walk on a really nice loose lead?

Speaker 1: 4:52

So if we think about where a lot of people are with a big breed pulling and we think about where we want to be, which is great dog walking outside and I'm not looking for professional heel work, but I would absolutely love a dog walking with me and love a dog hanging out with me If we think about it like that, what skills are missing or what concepts are lacking? When we think about here at Games Club and Pro Dog Trainer and all of what we do with Absolute Dogs the 10 days to stop pulling opportunity that everyone's got here today £27, you're a listener, we want you to come join us. It's lifetime access. Or if you're in Games Club, you get all of the 10-day courses anyway. Or if you're in PDT Club, you get everything, including real cool live coaching. When we're thinking about that, what concepts are lacking? Because we're concept trainers, we train in concepts.

Speaker 1: 5:39

What concepts was Bonnie lacking which enabled her to pull so strong, but not necessarily to focus or to connect or to walk nicely on a lead and, most of all, to choose to walk with you? Because I think we have to acknowledge that big dogs, horses, whatever else it is they choose to walk with you. So when I'm walking with one of my ponies on a, on a leader, let's say on a, on a, um, a lead rope, and when I'm walking on a lead rope, I know they're choosing to walk with me. If they wanted to pull me over, they can pull me over. If they want to take off with you, they can take off with you. There's a choice, right. And what are those concepts, alice? Or what was missing that was stopping Bonnie connecting and walking correctly with you.

Speaker 2: 6:18

So I think, yeah, I think the most obvious one you think of when it comes to loose lead walking is proximity. Does the dog see value in the space that's right next to you? Does the dog see value that should I say more value in the space next to you than the space out there past the end of the lead? And you know it's, it's so easy to actually show the dog that actually the next to you is where the best deal is going to happen. But that's where all the fun happens, that's where all the rewards come from. So you know that's that would be the first concept that that really you would think about tackling when it comes to losing the game.

Speaker 1: 7:03

And it's so, so, so, so, so, very true, isn't it? If the dog doesn't value the space next to you, then no, they're not going to be loose-leash walking, right, they need to value the space next to you, like that's really really king and really really important. And for me, if I think about loose-leash walking, the other thing and I think this is part of our Stop Pulling or our 10 Days courses for me the other thing was what do they rehearse on a day-to-day basis? So when I'm trying to stop a dog pulling, whether it's a big dog, whether it's a small dog, the only reason it's more difficult when it's a big dog is they actually can hurt, they actually can pull you over, they actually can take you to the floor. Chihuahua is never likely to so often. We tolerate a chihuahua pulling more than we'll tolerate a dog de bordeaux pulling. Or, um, your dog bonnie, who's a german shepherd, um, cross with a mastastiff yeah, all sorts of stuff, mastiff. Do you know which type of Mastiff? Neapolitan, or bull.

Speaker 2: 7:51

There's a bit of Neapolitan in there. There's Canicorso in there and a little sprinkle of Boxer.

Speaker 1: 7:56

Yes a bit of all. Canicorso was the breed I was thinking and my brain went to Mastiff. But for me, when you're talking like a dog's Bordeaux pulling you or a Mastiff or a Canicorso or one of the big breeds, the giant breeds, effectively, and the fight breeds and the breeds that would be there to really guard and scare, the difference is they will hurt, like when they pull you over. They can take you. And when you think about like someone, like your weight, even though you're in a bakery you actually are very, very slim and I have to say, enviably so, because I look at your cakes and want to eat all of them, especially the almond one is my favorite of Alice's. I'm like, don't bring it near me. I love Bakewell. I love almond anything. Actually I love almond floor cleaner. I love almond sprays, I love almond wood cleaner. I just love a bit of almond. But yeah, for me the thing that I find really, really interesting here is that those dogs that are little get away with it, but actually they only get away with it because the pain point isn't necessarily there for the owner. The pain point's there for the owner when you're talking a big breed because it starts to hurt and actually, when it hurts, it's also quite dangerous at times when that dog does lunge or fling or throw or like dash or whatever they might do.

Speaker 1: 9:02

So if I think about with my dog and probably my stronger dogs, mango or tokyo, in the past, I would say one of the things they didn't learn was they didn't learn to pull me. So what they practice, they become, or what they rehearse, they become. And no, we're not going to allow them to rehearse it. So a couple of my top tips would be if you're going to go somewhere and you don't want to work on lead walking, then drive there and just let them out. Don't actually put them in a situation where you're going to put them on lead and allow them to do it, because if you allow them to do it, then really what you're saying is it's allowed and you're starting to rehearse it and become it. And it's the same as me with, like eating chocolate. We eat chocolate once and one evening and then the next evening we grab some more and the next evening it's a habit and suddenly it's our ritual and suddenly it's our routine. Actually, it comes to eight o'clock and we're craving the chocolate.

Speaker 1: 9:45

It will be no different for your dog. You get them on lead. They're used to pulling in that place and then you ask them not to. When expectation and reality don't meet, you get frustration. When you get frustration, that's when you get the dogs. It's not only towing on the lead, but they're also towing and maybe running up the lead and trying to bite the lead, like you get dogs who are really quite frustrated by the fact they can't or screaming or whining or, and suddenly you got like a sled dog going on.

Speaker 1: 10:07

Actually, all these things are worth us considering and for me, management and rehearsal are so, so, so vital. So when we talk about the 10 days to stop pulling course, if you get to join £27, it's a listener bonus go and get it. It's a really cool opportunity. It's slashed down from 97. The cool thing for me there is that we talk about management and managing rehearsal and we talk about one of the things we might do to stop it.

Speaker 1: 10:31

Now I know you've conditioned a head collar, for example, alice, and you conditioned a head collar. Why? Because Bonnie's too darn big to be able to hold sometimes on a collar and lead and sometimes you actually just want to manage the situation and walk and there's trainers. There are trainers out there who say management is a bad thing, you should never manage. I say that management is a good thing on the whole, as long as it's kind to dogs and trained appropriately. The reason I think management is a good thing is it's also you're training the dog what you want and you're showing the dog what they want, so you're not allowing them to go wrong, and I think there's a space for not allowing a dog to go wrong. What do you think and and tell us a little bit about?

Speaker 2: 11:05

sometimes you'll use a head collar and why yeah, absolutely, and and you're absolutely right in that it's how you train something like that that makes all the difference. So what you said before about you know, if your dog's getting kind of frustrated, the lead they may be biting up the lead or something maybe drive somewhere where you can let them off or, you know, just actually be in a secure environment. This might be your living room, it might be a garden, it might be a secure dog field, wherever where you know just actually be in a secure environment. This might be your living room, it might be your garden, it might be a secure dog field, wherever where you can actually just go. You know what? No lead, we're not even going to bring the lead into the picture. What we're going to practice is that proximity, that value for being next to me, that engagement with me, and the playing games together in that close proximity, such as Magic Hand, would be a kind of prime example. I mean that me and bonnie have done a lot of and we played lots of magic hands, yeah, in the living room, in the backyard, at the secure dog field, in places where we didn't even need to have a lead or a head collar or anything. She could just run around naked and be having fun by my side.

Speaker 2: 12:05

And then when you then add that walking clobber back in, whether it's a flat collar, a head collar, whatever it is that's appropriate for your dog or whatever it is you're training and shaping for them, you've got that to a point then where they're not putting pressure on it.

Speaker 2: 12:22

So you've got that safety net, you've got that control for when you are out in public and they do need to be on a lead. But for Bonnie, with training the head collar that way, it means that we can be walking along and there's no pressure going on that head collar at all. But it means that should a distraction that you know happen, that is going to be just, you know that sort of pushes her out of her comfort zone or something like that. It just means that actually I can hold her safely and you know no one's getting into trouble, nobody's getting hurt. It's just there as a kind of as the backstop, but it has not been trained by her being, you know, yanked around on anything or putting any frustration in a situation. We've played the games and that's what's laid the foundation for good heel work or you know, sort of good sort of loose lead, walking um rather than the equipment. The equipment is just kind of there as a necessity in public.

Speaker 1: 13:21

It's not what's actually creating the behavior and I really love the idea that I feel that I can set them up for success. How do you feel in that situation?

Speaker 2: 13:32

oh, definitely, I mean, that's that's kind of the aim of the game, isn't it? With whatever we're training is is like lay the foundation, so that we are teaching them how to get it right. You know, and, and just saying this is what we're after. This is the picture we want, because Because I think you know for most dogs, certainly for Bonnie is that she wants to get it right. You know she wants to, to get the right answer. You know she, whether, whether I'm teaching her a new trick or you know, or whatever it might be, she wants to understand what it is I want from her and stuff, and she wants to get it right.

Speaker 1: 14:06

I think, you know, if we are just sort of communicating that in a fun and in a kind way, um, and allowing them to like, say, setting them up for success and allowing them to get it right, um, then then you kind of you can, you can, you know, if you get it right, then you can kind of almost stop a problem before it starts now a lot of people would say that when you've got a husband and wife duo or partnership and one person is better at walking the dog than the others for example, chris is better at walking Bonnie because he's a little bit heavier than you are, so effectively might be able to do it better a lot of people will say, go with that and just do it because it's easier, so let's go with that. How did you feel about the idea of not being able to walk your own big dog?

Speaker 2: 15:32

oh, just so frustrated and and kind of and and sort of that, and incompetent, actually, just kind of feeling like out of my depth or feeling reliant on the sort of skills or attributes of somebody else, and that is just not how I do life, um. So you know, I needed to find a way that was gonna that was gonna work for me. Where you know it, it wasn't. It wasn't coming down to, you know, force or muscle or just sort of, you know, being bigger or stronger. You know whatever, it was gonna be completely about teamwork between me and Bonnie. It was going to be completely about a kind of a mutual desire to to sort of move together and and have a nice time together.

Speaker 2: 16:19

And I mean, I just think actually that's, that's the sort of desirable option. Doesn't matter how much muscle you've got. I think actually you ask anybody would you like to have to manage your dog pulling on you and having to sort of tolerate that, or would you like your dog just to sort of enjoy being at your side and not pull? I think I think you'd be daft not to choose the latter. So, um, yeah, I think I think, just because you know, uh, having the upper hand with muscle was just never going to be an option for me, kind of like you know, meant I was going to pour all of my efforts into games-based training and into teaching Bonnie those skills and those, those uh, you know, setting her up for success through games, um.

Speaker 1: 17:00

But I kind of think, well, it's just the desirable option anyway so how does lead walking look for you and your very big dog now?

Speaker 2: 17:07

oh, absolutely feel like Lara Croft, like Bonnie comes up to, uh, up to the bakery with me, just kind of comes up to work with me sometimes. So we'll kind of, and it's just on an industrial estate. She kind of chills out in the van whilst I'm working and stuff which is safe to do so in the north of England and early in the mornings, um but, um, uh. But you know, when we go out for a walk around, you know, and it's in an urban environment, there's not that many other dog walkers and stuff that we tend to see. But you know, yeah, we just, we're just, you know, cracking on doesn't matter, she's not, she's not reacting to things, she's not dragging me down the street, you know, we're just having a pretty, pretty fun, chill time. She gets to sniff around and yeah, and it's all good.

Speaker 1: 17:48

When you saw her at the beginning and when you realised what a dog you'd taken on and I definitely know that lots of people would consider you outdogged by her when you started there Yourself included, I'm sure when you saw where she was and you see where she is now, what do you think?

Speaker 2: 18:05

I am really chuffed with her, like I'm really proud of how far she's come on and how, you know, and I guess, yeah, I get to kind of blow my own trumpet I'm proud of kind of the effort I've put in with her and that we have made that transformation and like she's not a finished product. There's more that I can teach her, there's more we can squeeze out of life and that, you know, there's there's more we can learn. But we've got a lot of the essentials, you know, looking pretty good now and and so, yeah, like I'm absolutely fair, I felt like a proper fool kind of, you know, early on, thinking am I going to be able to manage this dog? Are we gonna? Is this a relationship that can last? Is this, are we going to be able to keep her? You know, is that, you know, was definitely some of the questions that we were asking early on?

Speaker 1: 18:47

I think that's a really valid question are we going to be able to keep her? I actually think that that would come across most people's sort of thought process. This is a dog who's been rehomed. She in the past has had a serious incident with another dog. She's a large dog and she outweighs me.

Speaker 1: 19:05

We were homed as a gentle giant. We've got a home and she's not simply that. She's actually got some complexities going on and she's definitely got some history that we weren't aware of and possibly the rescue centre weren't aware of and possibly the rescue centre were. I think there's a place sometimes that we can choose to ignore certain things in the interest of trying to get a dog home, but actually it's relying on the tolerance and skill of the new owner, and lots of rescue centres I'm going to say this out loud because I think this is true in my history is that they're not equipped for the dogs that they're handed with, and so there are many centres out there who are doing the very best that they can with the tools that they've got and, like you said, when they know better, they do better, but sometimes they simply don't know. What would you say, alice?

Speaker 2: 19:46

Yeah, I think so. I think I think there's a huge spectrum with the rescue and rehoming centres in terms of, yeah, just like the knowledge and the capacity and the types of observations they're able to make. It was going to vary hugely with rescue dogs or with any dog you know, to sort of actually get on board with some games-based training from day one and kind of get off on the right track. Then I think that there's, you know, hopefully a lot fewer dogs being returned to rescue centres, just getting the right knowledge out there.

Speaker 1: 20:27

I've spoken to some fantastic rescue centres and one of the main things that they want to tackle all of them in fact is keeping dogs and owners together. They want to help make that partnership. I'm speaking to some fantastic people here. In fact, I'd love you to connect to them. Alice Michelle will know who they are. They are speaking to some fantastic owners here and they're so desperate to help. They've made it their passion, passion, their mission to help rescue dogs and what gorgeous people they are. And I mean my passion, my mission to help motivate and inspire owners all over the world. But these guys, they're dealing with limited resources, limited money, limited time, limited access, and I'm going to put it out there that any rescue centers, that listening, any people that are out there, if you want to get a hold of one of our 10-day courses or one of our £27 Sex and the Squirrel courses, and it's for your rescue centre, or anybody who works in a rescue centre, or anyone who's recently taken on a rescue dog and needs a hand and needs some help, I'm going to give free access to those courses. So if we can give free access to those rescue centres, the people that are working with the dogs day in day out, the people that are handling these dogs, who are potentially not equipped for these dogs yet, and that's not because they don't want to be, it's because they haven't either got the facilities or resources or financials to be able to support that. I want to give those out, so that is, email the ask team or get in touch with us over at Absol Dogs, and I know we can give away those digital resources and we even have some physical resources If someone wants to pop by the centre. I'm very happy to give away physical resources too, because for me, if we can help these people that are helping, keep these teams together.

Speaker 1: 22:05

I know, alice, that dogs like your, bonnie, would be put to sleep in so many hands, and I'm not saying that lightly. I do not want to see a dog put to sleep, but I know that she is too big and too unmanageable at the state that you had her in, and whether the rescue centre didn't know what they were taking on or didn't know what they were homing, I know that in most hands that dog would never have made it, and I'm so proud that she has, and I'm so proud that you've got a good handle on it, and I also don't say this lightly I wouldn't struggle to meet you on a walk and be able to know that you either had her on lead appropriately or we're going to move at an appropriate distance, or I would keep hold of my dogs to the point that they wouldn't be going over and greeting anyway and I would feel safe to meet you. And that for me is massive, because one of my big insecurities is I own six kilo dogs and so when you own six kilo dogs and they meet 40 plus kilo dogs on a walk, you do fear for them, because mine are happy, busy, fast, little dogs who can annoy the hell out of other dogs because they're so fast and busy. And so, no, I don't want to meet, um, a dog that could just take. And the thing is, with a dog like Bonnie, it takes one bite right and so she pulls and she might even it might even be a play bite right, like there can be a playful bite with a dog who doesn't have bite inhibition sorted, and so these could be bites where and I have seen, sadly, dogs killed. I've seen a dog killed at a big event, a papillon, by another larger dog. I have a friend who had a chihuahua, her nan's chihuahua, her nan's chihuahua and they inappropriately left two terriers at home with nan's chihuahua and they came home to a dead dog.

Speaker 1: 23:34

So as much as I'd love the idea that we just talk fluffy, pink and rainbows, let's be really clear here. I've I've seen serious incidents with dogs and I know that bonnie has had a dog dog incident. These are things that happen when a dog pulls or takes off or is inappropriately off lead or is towed to the park and has got themselves worked up in an estate and is then let off lead and does go and do something inappropriate. And we've all had moments where we've made an inappropriate decision or we've done something that we think I could have done that better, or you know what. Let's help dogs, let's help dog owners. Those rescue resources are out there. I'm offering any rescue centre that gets in touch rescue resources for your rescue centre and I'm also offering any new owner with a rescue dog rescue resources, because I just feel like we could do better by rescues, rescue dogs and the resources we have. What do you think, alice?

Speaker 2: 24:22

I think that's brilliant, because I think this is it. I think when you're getting a rescue dog you could probably use an analogy it's like of getting a second-hand car with no service history. There's gonna be maybe one or two surprises, maybe not, but there might be. And actually, if you've got the right resources, if you've got the right style of training and the right style of learning from day one, you've got a much, much higher chance of success.

Speaker 2: 24:48

Um, you know, yeah, there were definitely occasions where we were not at all convinced that we were going to prevail with, you know, keeping Bonnie and having a sort of safe and happy relationship with her um, but we have managed it because we have found the right learning, we've found the right training and we've, you know, we've put the work in and stuff and, um, you know, we've, we've prioritized that um, but it's completely possible. You know, even even, like you say, in quite extreme sort of situations, I say, yeah, I don't. Uh, bonnie was not an easy dog to take on. She did have a serious incident prior um to have been taken into rescue, um, and and and. Yet, you know, here we are. We can kind of be a sort of fairly socially acceptable member of the community. Now you know what, alice, I think.

Speaker 1: 25:35

I would walk with you over and over, and this is why I want to share the Game Changer way and I think it's. I don't think it. I know it is the best way you can train a dog, and so this episode we have tackled big dogs on lead. But let's be really clear it doesn't really matter whether it's a big dog on lead or a small dog on lead. Actually, all dogs on lead can work with this. Now, alice, if anyone was to ask you, should they take on the 10 days to stop a dog pulling? Or maybe they should take on games club or pro dog trainer club, what are you going to tell them?

Speaker 2: 26:12

yeah, yeah, do it. I mean, yeah, if you can just sort of manage to get a hold of the mini course, then get a hold of that, because there's going to be some really good collection of games that's going to really help you with that specific struggle. But, genuinely, if you can jump in and even just kind of give it a try with games club or pdc club, then you're going to get those mini courses plus access to an enormous library of games which are going to help with loose lead walking or any other dog training struggle that you can think of, and the community that goes with it. So you know it can.

Speaker 2: 26:48

It can be a lonely space, can't? If you've got a dog training struggle and you feel, like everyone else that you see on a walk is that the dogs are walking really nicely or they just seem to be having just a wonderful time and you're the one walking an absolute monster. It can be a lonely place to be. So actually having access to a community of other people who understand your struggle, have maybe lived it, have maybe overcome it, you know, or who maybe can team up with you and kind of you can sort of keep each other going and keep each other motivated. That's as much of a game changer as the games that you teach your dog like being having that support and having that knowledge sharing is is huge. So yeah, if you, if you, can jump in and I'll see you there.

Speaker 1: 27:33

Yes, alice, I love it. Now, alice, I know we've got more to share, but that was this episode of the Sexiest Girl podcast. Are you game for joining me for sharing some more of Bonnie's adventures? Absolutely, I love this. And what I love most for you guys as listeners is you get to hear real life stories, real life owners, real life dogs, and not just the pretty fluffy ones, actually the ones who've actually had some fairly serious behavioral struggles to overcome, and they haven't just overcome them, they've smashed them out of the park. So I'll see you next week. Make sure you join us and, beyond everything else, please ensure you share this podcast. If you haven't already reviewed it, get doing that too.