Speaker 1: 0:09

Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel podcast. I'm Lauren Langman. I'm one of the world's leading dog trainers and it's my mission to help owners become their dog's top priority. In each episode, you'll discover how to gain trust and communicate with your dog like never before, creating unbreakable bonds that make you the most exciting part of their world. Hello and welcome to the Sex and Squirrel podcast, a podcast that gives you real life, dog training and sometimes human results too. Today, I'm joined by the wonderful Dave, and Dave and I are talking sills not window sills or other sills. But what type of sills, dave? Not?

Speaker 2: 0:44

windowsills or other sills. But what type of sills, dave?

Speaker 1: 0:50

We are talking about the small incremental learning system today. Now, that sounds maybe not as small as you're describing. Do you want to dive a little deeper for us, because these guys are here thinking that they're going to be sexy in a squirrel.

Speaker 2: 1:06

How does this apply? Yeah, so the small incremental learning system. So this forms a really really key part of our training philosophy. So, in conjunction with the ABCs, the small incremental learning system, or our SILS process, gives us the platform to make sure that when we're training, that the dogs are actually making progress. And this is what's really, really important, because we always say it's about progress, not perfection. And this small incremental learning system just gives us that platform to make sure that we're constantly challenging the dog in very, very small chunks and very, very small steps to actually get better at what we want them to do.

Speaker 2: 1:48

And so what we always kind of say is uh, we take the first s, which is small. So what we want to do with our training is to break everything down into the smallest chunks possible. Now, the reason we do that is because we want to be able to build every single individual behavior and then link them together. And so if we then hit a problem, we're not jumping big steps to try and fix a problem. We're dealing very much with the very, very small detail, um, so that's why we focus on the. The first s has been small. Um, incremental is really, really important because, if you think about a ladder, a ladder goes obviously vertically, and so that's the same as what we want to do with our dog training, because there'd be no point having a ladder trying to get onto the roof of our house if it was just horizontal. And this is one of the things that sometimes fails in dog training is that we kind of carry on doing the same thing and we kind of tweak a few things. That makes us think, it makes the dog think, but it doesn't actually get us anywhere. It doesn't actually make anything incrementally different. We're just kind of doing different things. So what we always say is we need to think about training through our training ladder and go from the bottom of the ladder to the top of the ladder in order for us to reach the top of the house. And this is why it's really, really important that the steps are really small, because if you've got that ladder that's going vertically and you're going from a to z, you need to be able to put all the other letters in the alphabet into those slots, because you wouldn't be able to jump from a to z. You couldn't go from the ground floor to the roof in one leap. Similarly, you probably couldn't go from the ground floor to the roof in four leaps, and so we need to think about training as that ladder and make it incrementally more challenging for the dog in order to get us to our end result.

Speaker 2: 3:51

And then we talk about the L, which is learning, and this is something I'm really passionate about. So learning is learning for everybody. So when we're training, we need to make sure that not just the dog is learning. So when we're training, we need to make sure that not just the dog is learning, but actually the owner's learning or the instructor's learning, and we're all learning collectively.

Speaker 2: 4:13

And this is why it's great when we train in groups and we do, you know, retreats and we do group sessions is that everybody's learning from everybody else's experiences, and so when we adopt the SILS process, it really focuses on that learning aspect. So, yes, we need to make sure the dog is learning the skills they need, but actually we're also empowering the owner to learn and actually, if I'm instructing or we've got instructors instructing, that they need to be learning at the same time, because it's not always the dog that is going to do all the learning. So I know that when I set up training exercises and when we're doing retreats and we're doing classes, that I'm actually going to go away from that session learning something from my students and learning something from the dogs that I've worked with. So it's really important when we adopt the SILS process that that learning is what really kind of intertwines everything together and then Dave really quickly what you say with learning.

Speaker 1: 5:12

I think this is really massive and impactful that we always have more to learn 100% as an instructor, as a dog handler, as a dog handler, as a competitive sports handler.

Speaker 1: 5:25

I've been in dogs for 25 years probably a little bit longer, and that's a long time that's way more than half of my life and so actually the fact that I'm an eager beaver saying I still need to learn a lot more and I'm still really open to learning a lot more. I think that's where, looking at a lot of dog handlers and dog people, they're not always acknowledging that openly and I think it's really important we acknowledge and leave ourselves open to go I need to do that course, or I need to head on to some learning here, or actually I lack this skill, or actually that's an area I need to skill up. What do you think?

Speaker 2: 6:00

Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, the day there's someone that knows everything there is to know about dogs is the day that person needs to pack up and stop, because you never stop learning and you'll never be in a position where, you know, I'm a big advocate of, of learning um. I've been lucky enough to learn from some absolutely fantastic people and that's why, you know, when we do these podcasts, it's it's our way of also sharing that knowledge and and helping other people learn um, because I think everybody learns from each other and and whether you're a person with you know, 20 years experience, or or somebody just starting out, you know with with dogs, that we can still learn from the person just starting out with dogs, because sometimes we forget what it's like to be that person starting out with dogs. You know, I've been in this industry for you know over two decades, and you forget sometimes what it's like to be that brand new kid on the block that doesn't really know anything, and so like that.

Speaker 1: 7:08

I think that's probably sometimes very humbling, isn't it to be in that position and to realize quite how that position is and feels like it's a very humbling space to sit and work, and it's a very humbling space to, to, to, to be yeah, I think it's great because and you know the course is, you know we run a scent retreat, didn't we recently?

Speaker 2: 7:29

and, um, I'm on the whatsapp group and the guys are fantastic. They're coming with all these different creative ideas of building scent walls with drain pipes and all kinds of like. Really great um, innovations. And I'm looking at these pictures coming and going god, that's a great idea. I'm going to steal that for my scent detection.

Speaker 2: 7:49

Dog training.

Speaker 2: 7:50

So I think, as I say, it really underpins everything about, you know, dogs and dog training is that everybody's got something to learn. Um, and that's what's really important in the sales process is, um, you know, certainly when we're running instructor courses and train the trainer courses, is we really impress upon this fact that just because you're an instructor doesn't mean to say you're not going to learn from your students? Um, and certainly in the working dog capacity, very often your students are the dog handlers that are still operational and and out working on the street, and so, actually, you're learning loads and loads of things from them to enable you to make the dogs better and make the handlers better operationally, because without that learning about what they're going through day to day, because that's ever evolving, then you're never going to be really on top of your game. And I think that's what's really important when you're an instructor is you've really got to tune into your students and learn from them to enable you to put your skills in place to make everybody better. So, yeah, everybody has to learn through the SILS process.

Speaker 1: 9:01

So small incremental learning systems, let's talk. Learning systems, let's talk uh, give me a bigger, give me a dog training behavior, where you think small sales, they, small incremental learning systems, they really matter, or I mean I get they matter everywhere. But give me an example, let's.

Speaker 2: 9:16

Let's have something tangible that people can think about and then maybe some tangible examples that go alongside dave yeah, I think I'd, certainly if you use a working dog capacity and I like to use biting dogs that go out and apprehend people, um. So if you think about when we first start teaching a dog um, you know, to bite the end goal is that they're able to run down a high street and take out the person that's running away with a machete, for example, um. But it takes a lot of steps to get to that process where you know the dog's opening the mouth wide enough to be able to get the mouth around the arm or the shoulder or whatever it might be. You've got the dog being fast enough to be able to chase after the person running away. You've got the dog being able to identify and and see the person running away.

Speaker 2: 10:05

So there's lots and lots of things that build into this end result and this is why the small incremental learning system is really important, because the first thing we need to do, you know, potentially, is actually get the dog to open its mouth properly to bite a small bite tug, and that sometimes starts when the puppy is, you know, nine weeks old for some training. So actually teaching the dog to open its mouth and bite properly, with the right mechanics is is really important. So we'd start off on something like a piece of sheepskin um. Then we'd move to, um, a small kind of sausage bite roll, then we'd move on to a small wedge and a bigger wedge, and a bigger wedge, and a sleeve and a bite suit and no bite suit, and so all of these different steps and stages need to be built in the right way, just checking here.

Speaker 1: 10:55

When you say no bite suit, you do mean the criminal by this point, right.

Speaker 2: 10:59

You don't practice with no bite suit on well, we, we have been known to wrap ourselves in newspaper or Newspaper what kind of protection is a newspaper going to give you?

Speaker 2: 11:11

Well, you'd only do it for very, very novice dogs and let them get on and off as quickly as possible. Thankfully, there's some really good innovative products in the marketplace now. But yes, you know, and this is what I say, this is what is really, this is what it's really important that you've built these steps incrementally to, to prepare the dog for the real life environment. And that's, you know, a really extreme example. But, um, you know things like you. Let's translate it into the pet dog world. So, for example, um, you know, if you've got a dog, I've got one here.

Speaker 1: 11:48

So on my screen, here I've got a shaped retrieve and here oh, there you go here are my 10 steps, or my 12 steps of a shaped retrieve from level one at power up your nose touch. Level two introduce the object and encourage the nose touch or interaction. Level three mouth around the object. Level four brief hold or grip, taking use or making use of opposition reflex. Level five add duration. Level six pick up the object. Level seven carry duration on object. Level eight send out for the object and bring back. Level nine get a gritty retrieve. Level 10 add in different objects. Level 11 generalize and proof and then could add the retrieve into a box or tidy toys away option. So we've gone like through all the steps that we would perfect and that's part of games club. So, part of games club, we've got all of the tracks. So within the tracks you might do a retrieve or a wrap. It will take you all through the levels and will take you up through the levels.

Speaker 2: 12:42

So that's part of that track yeah, and I think I think this is what's really key, and a lot of stuff with dog training is, um, you know, I always say you know we're talking about tracking and mantrailing and all these things is they're all kind of words that describe the same thing and actually what? What you've just um, you know, provided an example of is that the sales process is really it's actually in process with everybody a lot of the time, and sometimes it's just putting the words and the context around that People go. Oh yeah, I kind of understand where this is going now. And it's very similar when we talk about the ABCs. When we actually go through our kind of lessons and our seminars on the ABCs, you start to see people go oh yeah, I actually understand this. And now you can see where I'm actually doing a lot of this stuff, um, already. And so, exactly like you've described, when we certainly when we're running courses and we're we're doing a lot of this sales, um, kind of learning and training, is that people start it's almost like the penny drops and people go oh yeah, I can kind of understand, um, where this is is coming. But what's really important is that we want it to be at the forefront of everything we do, and I think very often we do stuff without really thinking, and I always say we think, plan, do review, and so part of the sales process is kind of cutting across all of those think, plan, do review stages, because we're making it incremental, we're learning, but there has to be a system in place as well.

Speaker 2: 14:15

Um and I think that's the really key thing very often what I see is people chopping and changing from different methods, so we're very quick to dismiss something if we don't get instant gratification and instant results, not not just in dog training, but but in life generally.

Speaker 2: 14:34

Um, and this is something I'll talk about. You know, when we talk about management, leadership and dealing with people and students, is that very often people will want to see quick results and quick gratification, and this is where the system really really comes into its own, because you've got to believe in the system. Um and so, for example, if we're you and sometimes some dogs don't fit that system, sometimes the handlers don't fit that system, and what can happen sometimes is people then start to divert to different areas and you've almost then got like six or seven different instructors giving them different ideas and tips, and so actually you've almost got too many different systems now built into this training method, which is just confusing everything, and I think that's what's really important that when you've got a system, you know we're not necessarily saying it's the best system in the world and it's the only system, but if you stick to the system, you should then see the results at the end of it.

Speaker 1: 15:43

Thinking about your think plan, do review of it. Thinking about your um think plan, do review. And I completely agree. I love think plan, do review and I'm very much, uh, think through what I want, I plan what I want, I do it, and then I look back on it.

Speaker 1: 15:52

I offer my reviews often video based, so I like watching a video back and and seeing whether, for example, doing a hand touch, suddenly you'll think you're doing a hand touch, but when you look you actually push your hand in at the dog and you're like, no, actually I'm just doing my own nose touch and I don't really need a nose touch. If I needed a nose touch, then be fairly simple to explain it, and I'd be reinforced by chocolate fudge, whereas this is a dog doing the nose touch, not me. And so there's those those types of things. I love watching a video. I've got an example here. I was ruining one of my retrieves and I didn't realize I was ruining it, but I was. I could see the dog was getting slower at it and it's because every time they came in I put my hands on the head and that was such a great learning like for me. It was. It was, it was brave it was about nine years ago and it was brave who I was training and every time she came in I'd pat her on the head and as soon as I took my hands off and started like like doing that kind of to be honest, with a toy, however, she hated you coming in on her and so many people crowd their dog. So for me, review I just wanted to add, for our listeners, video I love reviewing video.

Speaker 1: 16:51

And then, secondly, the small incremental learning systems. I really like the small incremental learning systems as a I thought in a process, uh, and, and what I would say is most people and I don't know if you see this, but the novice trainers, the most inexperienced trainers, will lump and leap and take a chance at it, and most experienced trainers will really get gritty about foundation or sort of really reinforcement, because I know that what I can reinforce, I stand a chance of being able to really teach, and also know that, um, the most trainable dogs are very susceptible to reinforcement, which was what makes mallies and spaniels so good at their jobs, because the more susceptible your dog is to reinforcement, the more trainable they are. So for me, I love small incremental learning systems because it allows me to really get nitty-gritty with the early detail and then suddenly you can lump and leap and jump around because you've got such good small incremental learning systems at the foundation like I love that yeah, and I think I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Speaker 2: 18:34

It's building up the foundations in that, really, as a smaller chunk as you can get is the most beneficial, because it does then enable you to experiment with stuff, because you know if it goes wrong you haven't got far to go back to fix it and I'm probably really guilty. I train very often and one of my friends, I send videos to him and he's like no, no, you've jumped too far ahead. I love, I'm just going to go and try this Because I know actually I've built such a strong foundation in terms of that sales process that, yeah, okay, I'll go and try something a bit crazy, but knowing if it doesn't go right, I've still got the foundation to put the next links in to get me there, and I think that's really important. But I go back to that kind of human behavior and human psychology of trying to always strive for that instant gratification and that's why, where you need to be, and lots of those little chains and lots of those little links in the chain will get you from the bottom of the house to the top of the house.

Speaker 2: 19:53

Um, and yes, every now and again you might make a leap and get to the top, but nine times out of ten you'll make a leap, put your feet on the roof and fall back off again back to the floor, and I think that's what experience tells you. Is that okay? There's nothing wrong, necessarily, in trying to make that leap, but you know you've built the steps that way. You're not going to fall back to the floor, you're going to fall halfway down.

Speaker 1: 20:16

There are some things that you just don't leap right. There are some things like for me, I don't leap reinforcement. I don't chance it that my dog is just going to haphazardly find reinforcement and it's going to work swimmingly. You and I work really hard on reinforcement, so I don't know if you want to talk through what you're doing with the pup right now, dave, because I know that you've been working with a youngster. It's a dog that will or he's a dog, rather, that will go to be operational and he'll carry out a very important role. He'll carry out a very important role, um, but what sort of things have you been like, stamping in now, imprinting in in his, in his understanding of reinforcement, for example, or, um, any other small incremental learning systems for him?

Speaker 2: 20:56

yeah, no, I think I think reinforcement's a really big one because, um, you know he's. He's a dog that has got stacks of motivation and desire, and that's why I think sometimes it's very easy for people to go oh, do you know what the dog's really good? He's a dog that has got stacks of motivation and desire, and that's why I think sometimes it's very easy for people to go, oh, do you know what the dog's really good? He's got loads of motivation. I'm not going to play that much of an emphasis on it, and I see this a lot, certainly in detection dog training, where people you know really jump to building the dog's indication because it looks good for YouTube and Instagram and all these different things, but actually, fundamentally, the the dog would have benefited from more reinforcement and motivation.

Speaker 2: 21:32

So, yeah, everything I'm doing with with the young dog I'm developing at the moment is play, motivation, desire and just making him even even quicker chasing the toy, even more determined to hold on to it when he's got it. Um, making him more determined to get the toy when it's in an inaccessible place. So all of these things I'm doing is building very, in very, very small incremental steps. Um, it's just building that. Yes, he's got motivation and desire, but I want more, and the only way I'm going to get more is by building it, you know, 1% at a time, um, and making that really strong, and once I've got it to a level that I'm like through the roof, then I can start to do more of the Gucci stuff.

Speaker 2: 22:20

And generally what I've found is, um, it's easier to train a dog if you've built the foundations properly than it is to try and train the dog when you haven't built the foundations properly. But what I see a lot of is people rush to try and get the end result because it looks good on social media or it looks good in front of their friends or family or peers or whatever it might be, but very often people don't see the hard graft that's been put in. You know, you see, usain Bolt runs for nine seconds and gets the plaudits for being the fastest man on the earth, but no one sees the hours and hours and hours and hours and hours. He's worked on building his quads, building his hamstrings, building his calves that enable him to go and actually perform at the highest level. And I think it's exactly the same with dog training.

Speaker 1: 23:09

And that 1% that you talk about. Like imagine you get 1% better every day. Or just imagine you get 1% better every month, like it's still a big percent right, like it's a big leap. And then, when you think about what you just said, I used to be a school teacher and I the best lessons would look so seamless and yet the hours or the planning or the prep that had gone into making it look that good or be that good or it like it would be insane. And yet those were the best lessons. But they'd almost like just go and it would all work.

Speaker 1: 23:39

And it's the same as watching a dog run an agility course where they've had all the schooling. Or it's the same as watching you search a hotel room and your dog indicates perfectly when you've maybe searched another I don't know 500 rooms and this is the 501. And your dog knocks and gets that hit straight away, bang, boom. It's watching Linda do a perfect 10 to 15 minute obedience round. Like all of us instructors in our own field. You watch the layers and layers. It's layers, it's splices and slices, spices, slices, layers the odd lump where you think you might get away with it, but typically not typically layers on layers on layers on layers and layers and layers. Is it same? You know what another good example is having a great body. You watch someone who works out and it doesn't happen quickly, right, like it's, it's it's daily diligence to the cause, right.

Speaker 2: 24:35

Absolutely. It's all about habits and you fit the nail on the head. You know, same with people, same with dog training. If you, if you build the right habits and you build them in a small, incremental way, you will end up with with results. And, like I say, we're in a a, you know, a society of instant gratification. And that's what makes dog training difficult is that people don't want to stick to the small habits, they don't want to stick to the small chains and the small incremental learning system.

Speaker 2: 25:00

They, they want, you know you've got a dog pulling on the lead. They want to fix it in 20 minutes because they've seen a youtube video of, you know, probably three weeks worth of trainings put into a 30 second. You know sales pitch and, and I think you know, in the world of social media, you never really see what goes on in the, in the background, to get the results. And, like you say, you know you look at, you know influencers on on social media who've got great bodies and go to the gym and work out and they're personal trainers, but you don't see, you know they're not going to post their whole day of being in the gym because it's boring it's boring and and it's the same as me like when I think I've done enough of what I've been doing and I need to do, like the groundwork and the flat work.

Speaker 1: 25:42

That's not the sexy stuff you post. It's not the sexy stuff you post. You post the sexy stuff, but deep down you're working day in, day out on the gritty stuff. So I was just thinking. Then the instant gratification I write notes on some of the things you say so it can pull me up again. But the instant gratification world that we're in makes it hard sometimes to do the day in, day out, because the quick fix and the quick results are all out there. Quick results are all out there. But actually that layer on layer on layer on layer and I'm thinking back to you were there the day I started teaching Skittle I decided today I'm going to start agility, like today's the day, like I'd done groundwork and layers, but today's the day we're going to start some agility. And boom, it was quick.

Speaker 1: 26:25

And I remember you sending me a message and going flip, that looks really good. Good, like that looks really good. And I love that when instructors can celebrate other instructors. I think that's quite a unique world because there's a lot of instructors that don't celebrate other instructors. But in our instructor world, our pro dog trainer, on our pro dog trainer club, we celebrate other instructors and you're very, very good at that. You're very quick to celebrate and I remember you saying to me that looks amazing and I remember thinking, god, that is incredible, like she's incredible. But then you think about it and you think about every day the diligent training session where it might be five minutes, it might be 55 minutes, but it's every day, dave, and you're putting some work in towards that cause, right yeah, and I think you've just hit the nail on the head, because I think, again, some people you know, three minutes of really good training is worth way more than an hour of really ill thought out training.

Speaker 2: 27:15

And this kind of then links into the abcs again, because if you've diligently gone through your abcs to plan your training session for example, I think we filmed this actually when I was doing some stuff with with the pup in terms of some player motivation, and I think the session probably lasted what? Three minutes? Um, because we set out what we wanted to get, we were specific around the behavior and then we got it. But but actually that three minutes was part of the wider small incremental learning system that's going to take us from the bottom of the house to the top of the house. So, yeah, absolutely it doesn't have to be a one hour training session, it could just be a two or three minute, really really well thought out exercise great example of this.

Speaker 1: 27:57

today I was teaching and obviously you and I both day-to-day operational instructors, and I like that because you are, you're in the game, you're in the zone, like you are doing it. You're not preaching it, you're not talking the theory of it, you actually do do it. So I think that's important when you have anybody that you work with. Um, and I was out there teaching and there was a lady and we had like a few hours of um going through all of the steps of effectively the, the sills, um. So we were going through the sills of retrieve and wrapping and all the other games that we play, and so we were going through all the steps and breaking down all the steps. And the lady said so what? I'm not going to get my dog out for a few hours? And I said no, and when you do get your dog out, you've got three and a half hours. And she was like but we're here like six and a half hours and I'm like you've got three and a half hours with the dogs and three hours with the people and we'll divide it, it to be useful and purposeful, and for me it's the opposite.

Speaker 1: 28:49

I want to know exactly what I'm doing. I want to know where my toy should be. I want to know where my hands should be. I want to know, I want to see and visualize what I'm doing. I want to watch you do it with Biscuit, and then I want to watch maybe Cheryl do it with with her brilliant little dog, devin, and then I maybe want want to watch David do it with his dog, and then I want to do it with with my dog, because actually that is what small incremental learning systems are about, because it's not just about the dog learning, it's also about you knowing what you want out of the session. So sometimes you're learning and sometimes you're reviewing your planning and you're changing your plan because you didn't get it right the first time, right, dave?

Speaker 2: 29:23

yeah, so it's. It's that spinning plates I always say with dog training, spinning plates and and I think you're right, I think when, when you're in a group, the learning opportunity is is really strong. But but as a double-edged sword it sometimes flips into this kind of self-gratification piece. And something I talk a lot about is, um, you know, peer-to-peer um groups and peer-to-peer groups and peer-to-peer learning is the ASH experiment, which is where group conformity starts to creep into groups, and that can happen a lot in dog training.

Speaker 2: 29:56

So someone will bring their dog out and it'll be brilliant, and then all of a sudden everybody wants that their own dog to do exactly what the dog before them has done. And so this is why it's really important that when you are in groups, that you have built this learning environment, because not everything's going to go brilliantly, not everything's going to go disastrously. There's going to be good bits and bad bits that everybody can learn from, and so it is really really important. Important when you're going through that learning process is avoiding the group conformity kind of phenomenon, and that's really difficult because it's part of human psychology. And so, yeah, you're absolutely right, there's probably more learning is done when the dog is away and you're able to watch and pick up from other people and see what other people do.

Speaker 1: 30:54

It's massive, it's massive, it's massive, like absolutely incredible. So I think, rounding up on sales while they're important, having an instructor team around you that supports small incremental learning systems and not lumping and not just like jumping and leaping and testing things out and trying it for the hell of it I I think there's definitely a place for experimental training, but I think small incremental learning systems should be the main sort of fundamental base of where we take all of our behaviors. I love think, plan, do and review. I love that review is a part of that and I think, dave, I want to leave on the fact that as instructors both you myself, linda and all of the PDT team we all celebrate other instructors, other instructors trying to improve SILs and ABCs and think, plan, do, review and students ultimately having lifelong impactful learning with their docs right.

Speaker 2: 31:43

Yeah, definitely. I think the big thing to it all is to make habits successful. And to make these small incremental steps successful is that you need to be held accountable to them and, like you've just described, when you've got people around you that can hold you accountable whether it be for dog training or, you know those fitness influencers actually having someone to hold you accountable to making sure you're making those small incremental steps towards your goal is the most important thing.

Speaker 1: 32:12

That's massive, absolutely massive, huge and really impactful. So, dave, thank you so much for joining us for the Sex and the School podcast. I know 100% that SILS is incredible and I also know we've got more to share, coming up real soon on being an instructor, being the best instructor you can be. Maybe that's a search sent work instructor, maybe that's an obedience instructor, maybe that's an agility instructor or even a life skills and confidence instructor. There's lots we can do and, dave, thank you so much for joining us today.