Speaker 1: 0:09

Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel podcast. I'm Lauren Langman. I'm one of the world's leading dog trainers and it's my mission to help owners become their dog's top priority. In each episode, you'll discover how to gain trust and communicate with your dog like never before, creating unbreakable bonds that make you the most exciting part of their world. Oh, my goodness, my dog bit my dad. You know what? I guess you guys are listening, thinking what the hell? And yet it happens. It happens. Dogs are dogs and there are by incidents, and that doesn't make them a terrible dog and it doesn't make your dad a terrible person for doing the wrong thing. Actually, sometimes these things happen. Now, karen, I'm joined by Rupert's mum. Karen, this is a big opportunity for you to really get Rupert's story out there, also from the point of view of your dad, from you, like how did it actually happen and how did it come about? Because when we play it back, it all feels fairly obvious and yet in that moment it went horribly wrong.

Speaker 2: 1:10

My dad had Rupert for the weekend and my parents had Rupert for the weekend and he needed to have his harness put on and he was on the sofa very comfortable, happily chilling away, probably not really wanting to go out for a bedtime wee, wee and my dad moved him to physically put the harness on. So, whereas I know that the best opportunity for Rupert if I got, to get his harness on is to move him with some food, get him actually moving, loosen him off and then make that a consensual activity, my dad wasn't quite as clued up on that and just physically tried to move him.

Speaker 1: 1:47

And when he went to physically move Rupert, rupert basically said no. So effectively he didn't give consent. He was like I don't give consent to getting off the sofa right now. I quite like sitting on the sofa and I'm quite happy in this space. And no, I don't want to go out for a late outside, possibly rainy, wee, wee. Thank you, no. And it was his version of saying no, thank you. He just didn't maybe have the thank you or the no in the potentially correct sort of space. Now, how might you prevent that? Or how might we do better? By our dog? Or how might we prevent, prevent I suppose it's happening to our dad and and actually, where did you go from here? Because it's really easy for us to fall out with our family members, it's really easy for us to lose our dog sitter, it's really easy for us to feel very guilty, and guilty for a long time, on this, and these are all really normal observations, feelings, frustrations, upset, angst. Where do you sit with that?

Speaker 2: 2:35

now, yeah. So I did and do feel guilty and my parents are one of the few people who can or will look after Rupert. He's not the easiest dog to look after. So it was important from my relationship with my parents' point of view, and also from occasionally needing somebody to look after Rupert point of view, that that relationship didn't break down and they were still happy to have him and not feeling like he was going to be dangerous or difficult. So I guess the first thing was explaining to them why stillness is not his. He's not in a good headspace. If he's still, he struggles with disengagement, which is something I know that kind of goes through. All of his behavior struggles. Disengagement or an inability to disengage is one of his biggest struggles. So explaining that to them and then giving them strategies so actually at the moment, if if rupert goes to my parents house, he wears his harness all the time.

Speaker 1: 3:31

That's just the easiest for him and for them and I think that's a great idea to share these things with people because that makes complete sense to me. Leave the dog in the harness and lots of people say, oh, but they're not comfy overnight or they might chew it. Well, they might, but they might not and actually maybe they're not as comfortable overnight but actually the whole family and the whole dynamic is more comfortable and we don't have these bite incidents which actually fundamentally don't make the dog or the human feel very good. They're not actually good for anyone, because the dog ends up being in the bad book of the house and the bad dog in the house and the human ends up feeling frustrated, upset, anxious that it hurt. They feel all the bad things too. So actually it's no good for anyone and ultimately, like you said, it does break the relationship down. So that's one of your strategies. What other strategies have you come up with so that actually we don't have the moment of help?

Speaker 2: 4:14

my dog's just bitten my dad so they also know now that if they need to move him, the best way to do that is to throw some food, and he will typically follow it and make him well. Movement is really valuable for him because once he's in that kind of stuck state, then he is potentially going to react if he's not happy about something. So getting him moving is always a good strategy, whether that's me or my parents or anyone else who's handling him, but I mean I don't. He doesn't eat from a bowl with me. We've ditched the bowl. My parents are slightly less on board with that, so they have an easy version of ditch the the Bowl when he stays with them, which might be puzzle feeders and snuffle mats and whatever else. They're not playing games with him, but some of that food is there for you need to attach Rupert's lead to his harness, or you need to move him, or you need to distract him from chewing my auntie's scarf, which is another thing he's done when he stayed with them.

Speaker 1: 5:08

It's all about understanding him and not having the right management in place really, and I get it that some dogs are easier than rupert, and I also know that actually rupert is a little bit more complex and there are lots of learnt behaviors but also genetics or tendencies. So, knowing that he's got those frustrations and those spaces and those early learnings and those genetics, actually these are, these are ways of life really for Rupert. So you know, these are things that we likely will have to do for a little while or potentially forever. Now, when we're thinking about what got him into the situation in the first place, the fact that he is even on sofas in their house I know that's something he enjoys doing and I know that's something they probably enjoy having him there as well. But are there any boundaries or rules around sofas? Probably enjoy having him there as well, but is there are there any boundaries or rules around sofas, or could there be any boundaries or?

Speaker 2: 5:52

rules around sofas? There certainly could be. I mean, he does have boundaries at their house. He doesn't go in their bedroom, for example, and he, he just knows well, he doesn't have the option of going in their, their bedroom at all, whereas in my house, my rules and I know how to to kind of deal with that and that doesn't present us with a problem. Yeah, he's allowed in my bedroom. Yeah, he's not allowed in their bedroom. That's a definite barrier and yes, certainly we could give them right. Here's his bed, his boundary. He goes on there.

Speaker 1: 6:19

Yeah you're on the sofa. Yeah, and I think this is worth thinking about. If you've got a dog, that might be similar to this. I know I was working with behavior case not that long ago and the owner was having struggles with a sofa and actually we just took the sofa off bounds so the sofa was no longer a part of that dog's space and actually the behavior went away at the same time because we'd removed the access to the sofa. So sometimes by removing access, then actually you've you've solved some of that problem or part of that problem, because they no longer have access to it. Another thing you touched based on it touched based on there was about ditching the bowl for r rupert to stop actually any of these bite incidents happening. You've actually got lots of food to utilize and to use. If you were thinking biting specifically or rupert and struggling to um effectively disengage, let's. Let's just look at the biting. What concepts is? Is rupert lacking when he's gone into bites?

Speaker 2: 7:07

well, probably quite a of them, but disengagement is definitely one. I mean, the opposite end of disengagement is engagement, isn't it? So he is extremely engaging with me in a very inappropriate way, which involves his teeth, and I think another missing concept, optimism is definitely one. You're going to move me.

Speaker 2: 7:27

I don't really know why don't like it. So that's another one. And then I think the other kind of key one here is probably a lack of a dimmer switch or a lack of an ability to kind of regulate his emotions, so he'll go up very quickly.

Speaker 1: 7:41

I'd also say flexibility. So I don't think Rupert's that flexible. I think Rupert likes things that Rupert's sort of way and so they kind of go in a set order. It's funny. I've got a team member who's just started working for me and he really loves the list and he's like thank you so much for a list. And he's like really quite interesting. He's like I love my list, I really love my list, and you can really see he's very attached to his list and I think Rupert should really get on well with my mum because she likes a list.

Speaker 1: 8:10

They'd get on well, wouldn't they? And so I feel that there's that regimented likes to know what's coming, how and when, and likes full explanations of all before he signs up for anything, and so I think the flexibility sort of switch is there, isn't it Like we're not that flexible, and I think that that is something also to be grown.

Speaker 2: 8:28

Yeah, and then his bucket as well. He's got quite a small bucket, however much work I do to try and make it bigger and to help it empty. So he's been put into a situation where his routine is disrupted, I guess as much as he has a routine For whatever reason. He's not in my house, he's in their house. I'm not there, they're there. So that isn't actually going to fill his bucket a bit more. So it's a bit of a kind of mixed bag of missing concepts that all play into that, I think.

Speaker 1: 9:09

So much, so much there. Now, if we think about Rupert as a dog, who you do earn his food and you do play games with his food, what sort of games and what sort of strategies? And guys, if you're not already part of Games Club and if you're not doing some of our learning, please, please, please, please, please, jump in at Games Club. What's the link for Games Club, karen? Have you got that link?

Speaker 2: 9:17

AbsoluteDogsme forward slash join the club. She's got it, she's got it. So once more, absolutedogs, join the club.

Speaker 1: 9:26

So join the club. Join the club with us, because we'd love to show you some games but what games? Would be some of Rupert's best games to go to here to try and solve some of these struggles? Because these are struggles and yet there are so many games we can play that are going to enhance and help and alleviate some of these problems and real long term issues, by actually just adapting the games we're playing with his food, because he's ditched his bowl.

Speaker 2: 9:47

Yeah, so there's loads of disengagement games for a start. So any of those, and they can all be played with food, so they're brilliant, because any disengagement game is going to boost that.

Speaker 2: 9:56

Give me an example of a disengagement game that you and rupert like disengagement pattern and explain how it works, so you would start with no distractions but ultimately work up to being able to disengage from distractions is the idea. So throw some food, one piece of food or some low value food towards a distraction, but starting off with something that's really not that interesting, yeah, so setting him up for success, that's not something he's gonna think like big soft toy.

Speaker 2: 10:24

There's something that's not that interesting for them and then when he flips back towards you because he knows you've got more food, then lots of food.

Speaker 1: 10:32

And it could be something as simple as like a I don't know a lamppost or a goalpost or a statue. It doesn't have to be anything particularly sort of nothing your dog is actually worried about at first.

Speaker 2: 10:45

So Rupert, for example, is not a dog who pays the remotest bit of interest to the TV remote, so I could put that on the floor and play with that, whereas if he was a dog that stole my TV remote, I wouldn't do that.

Speaker 1: 10:56

Yeah, easy peasy. Okay, so we're going to go with a disengagement game and we're going to go with disengagement pattern. Okay, what next?

Speaker 2: 11:03

Flexibility you mentioned has been quite a key. Rupert's concept I we put concepts. I really like playing around with things like how many? Different behaviors. Can you do with one thing nice a cardboard box or a platform. So can you put your two feet on the platform, can you go around the platform, can you sit on the platform, can you put your back feet on the platform, can you ignore the platform, which is then disengagement and flexibility in one nice.

Speaker 1: 11:24

Can you chin, target the platform. Can you lift up the platform if it's small enough and hold the platform? Can you watch another dog work on the platform and you? You lift up the platform if it's small enough and hold the platform. Can you watch another dog work on the platform and you sit on your boundary? There's so many different games. That's a really nice flexibility game. Any others?

Speaker 2: 11:38

I guess optimism as well, thinking about his other kind of Key concepts. There are so many, aren't there? Noise Box is a great one. So, stick some noisy things in a plastic box, scatter some of his food in there and then get him sticky.

Speaker 1: 11:53

I also think that Noise Box and games like Noise Box, Carpool, Chaos and Knock Em Over all of the games again we play in Games Club If you haven't joined, get on it. I also think with those they're such easy games and a great bang for your buck. Like you get a lot for them, I wouldn't play them till I'm like at the end of my session or I'm feeling a bit lazy, because I always feel like they're a bit of a cop out in terms of the fact I don't have to work too hard, but actually you get great value for doing them.

Speaker 1: 12:15

I just always feel like they're so easy, they're such good games. Now, the other game I was thinking that I definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely definitely would be or I suppose strategy I'll be working on is arousal up, arousal down. So what do you do? What's one of your favorite games for? Arousal up, arousal down?

Speaker 2: 12:31

so actually just again with his food, starting him on his boundary. So nice, low level of arousal, pretty calm. Get him off the boundary, get him chasing bits of food, or then move it maybe to luring food, so kind of slow it down a bit and then I might ping that into a game that he knows, so having the middle, and then fire him out in the middle. So basically take his energy up and down a little bit and then pop him back on the boundary and see if he can kind of bring himself back down again nice, really really nice game.

Speaker 1: 13:00

The other one I was thinking I like for him and I know you like for him is toy switch. Do you want to talk to toy switch very quickly?

Speaker 2: 13:05

yes, so two toys. We tend to use frisbees or socks. Both work quite well for him, but obviously, whatever works for the dog that you're playing with, you animate one and get them engaged with it and tugging on it, and then that one goes dead, so effectively stops moving, and then you get them to engage with the second one and you flip them between the two. This is a game that I used to hate because I really couldn't do it, and actually there are some very funny videos of when rupert and I first played it, where I was literally kneeling on the first frisbee and he still wouldn't let go and he was.

Speaker 2: 13:37

He was pulling me along the floor. He was so determined to not let go of that first one bless him.

Speaker 1: 13:42

I just think that's such a cracking game like a really, really, really good game for him and a game that I think can definitely help. Now another thing I know that you and rupa are superstars of your brilliant tricks. Just explain why you think tricks help with stopping him biting your dad, because that sounds nuts like hang on a second. There's this dog he's doing like circus tricks and one minute he's biting and the next minute he's doing a circus trick Like how does that even work? But I know it to be true that he's so much better when he's playing tricks and it almost completely it's like a light switch. It like changes him from like dark and night, like dark and daylight, like he goes from like real, like difficult to manage right through to like night and day, isn't, yeah?

Speaker 2: 14:26

well, firstly, he enjoys it, so you're giving him something to do that if he finds a real amount of joy in. So he's having fun, so he's in a good headspace, and I think when you're in a good headspace you're always more optimistic and you're less in your oh, everything's bad, everything's gonna get me kind of frame of mind, aren't you? So that is one aspect of it teaching tricks and playing around with tricks. They actually build all of the skills we've been talking about as well. So teaching him to put his toys in a box, he's learning disengagement, because he's got to pick one up and drop it and then he's got to go and pick another one up and drop it. Flexibility, again, the same kind of thing. You're right, you can put toys in a box. Now can you put socks in a box?

Speaker 1: 15:04

that every trick can build so many of these skills yeah, the concepts, the tricks and the concepts work so well hand in hand and I think the movement and the variety and the animation and the fact they're funny and the fact that he looks so cute, teddy bear, and the fact that he's, um, doing it with so much fun, I think for me, yeah, makes complete, complete sense.

Speaker 1: 15:22

Now, anyone out there who's listening, or maybe you want to share this with a friend, or maybe you want to share this with another dog owner, or I'm going to suggest you do share it, because you know what sharing is caring. Anybody who's been through a bite incident or been through an incident where, um, they're supporting someone who's had a bite incident, or maybe you're a trainer and this is going to happen at some point within your students or classes. What would you say? Just as a, as a, as a way of moving on to the next stage, because you can stay in that problem and it can feel pretty horrific and obviously bite incidents can become very, very serious, so they are worth like, taking note and being aware of, but at the same time, I also think there's a good space. It's not like you've ended in and this was a put to sleep case. This is actually your, your fluffy dog and and he's still your best mate. It's just that we have had this incident, so we need to now take that as information. What do you think?

Speaker 2: 16:07

Yeah. So I think the first thing really is as much as possible, don't let it define your relationship from now on, because it was an isolated incident and it was because of a lack of knowledge on my dad's part and an inappropriately managed situation and lack of skills on Rupert's part, and it was just a bit of a kind of boiling pot of lots of things that led to that, so that it doesn't define Rupert, it doesn't actually define my dad's relationship with Rupert and it doesn't define mine with Rupert either and I think, high five, karen, because it really doesn't.

Speaker 1: 16:45

And I think, at the same time, that information is really important. You've got the information. You know what happened there. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Have you done the same thing again with him and have you let him practice the same thing since? No, and I think this is really important, that we do what we do now with the knowledge and the power to, to do better, and for me, that's really, really, really impactful. And so let's not dwell on the past, let's dwell on well, let's not dwell, let's just go forward and let's go to the future. So, how does it look today?

Speaker 2: 17:14

So, we play games, we give my parents strategies when they have Rupert and actually I do minimize how many times they have to have him Absolutely, because I think that's wise for everybody but they are still happy to have him and we've just done the things like we've talked about, so he has his harness on and nobody's then in that situation of conflict where that could potentially happen again.

Speaker 1: 17:42

No, fantastic. Now, guys, if you're listening and you're thinking I wish I had more help with my dog in this situation, you need to get on the games club. You need to join us for pro dog trainer club. Has your life transformed with rupert and do you feel like you've got the answers? Whilst, yes, there's some management, do you feel like you know how to handle his struggles and helping your dad and the relationship?

Speaker 2: 18:01

yeah, and if anybody's listened to some of our previous podcasts, they probably think fl a neck, she's got a lot of struggles and what's she doing and why does it not work? Mindset of this is just one day and actually look at the bigger picture and there are things we can do, and how would I tweak it and what would I do differently next time? And there's all of that. And then there's always the support.

Speaker 1: 18:43

That, for me, is massive, isn't it? The support of the community. So there's always a community to support you and there's always people out there who are going to be there to have your backs and to look after you. Now, I know that bite incidents can be really, really serious, and what we're talking about is a dog who gave a warning sort of bite and said I don't want to get off this sofa. What we do with that? Information is important Now. Important now if you're listening and you want more support. We've got one-to-one support, we've got group support, we've got pro dog trainer games club. We've got so many different things that you can can get involved in. What I'm going to suggest is you do get involved.

Speaker 1: 19:13

So thank you, karen, for sharing you and rupert's story. We're gonna do that again and you absolutely are crushing it. I love what karen said. Look, this isn't because this isn't working. This is because, actually, I do know how to handle this and we can move this forward and we actually keep this dog rather than being a put to sleep case, which, again, when they have had incidents like that, that can go down that route, and I think it's viable to discuss that too. I think it's really important we don't have closed conversations there. I think it is actually. You know, those things do happen to dogs and that's why, guys, if you're listening, please share this podcast. There are so many people who need to hear this. This dog yep, he did bite karen's dad and, at the same time, the information, the learning, the growth and the opportunities that have come from that. They're massive. That was this episode of the podcast. Please share it with your friends and we'll see you next time.