SPEAKER_00: 0:37

Welcome to the Absolute Dog Text in a Squirrel podcast. I'm Lauren Langman. I'm one of the world's leading dog trainers, and it's my mission to help owners become their dog's top priority. In each episode, you'll discover how to gain trust and communicate with your dog like never before, creating unbreakable bonds that make you the most exciting part of their world. So a long time ago, I remember having conversations about socialization, and I think we should tell our stories about our dogs and how their socialization journey was different. So tell us about Rupert's upbringing in terms of meeting other dogs and actually how he feels about dogs today.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15

Okay. So when I first got Rupert, I was given all the traditional advice: take him to puppy class, meet lots of dogs, socialise him, take him to new places, do all of those things, check off the list of things. He was actually quite a nervous puppy. I wasn't massively savvy, but it was really obvious from the day I picked him up. He was hiding at the back of the pen. He didn't really want to be picked up. We seem to have had a personality transplant from the time before when I'd met him. He was he was not a confident dog. So putting him in lots of situations was probably the worst thing I could do for him, but that's not what I knew at the time. So when he was old enough, we did go to puppy classes, and they were kind of probably quite traditional puppy classes in a church hall.

SPEAKER_00: 1:59

And I imagine that was after having multi-vaccinations, going to visit a vet who was possibly a bad experience for him, and then possibly trying to put the dog on a harness in a lead and didn't really like that experience either, and maybe drag him around a bit.

SPEAKER_01: 2:09

Yep. Yep. And then it was the kind of class where you would learn to walk in circles around a hall with lots of dogs in a big circle and recalls two dogs head to head down the middle of a church hall. And it was a lovely class, and we did kind of little bits of agility foundations and little bits of tricks, and it's where he first learned to ring a bell with his paw and all the things he still loves doing. But a lot of what he learned there was dogs are quite overwhelming, people are quite overwhelming, environments like this are a bit too much. Dogs might look at me funny, I might need to bark back at them. I'm not quite sure I like dogs or people or going out at all.

SPEAKER_00: 2:50

Now there's a lot there, right, to unpack. And I'm thinking of my gorgeous dog Tokyo and his early days. He was born at my house. He was raised by ourselves, and he was here with his mum, Brave. And he stayed with Brave as long as he could, so I didn't really take him away from Brave so much. Like right through till I don't know, he was not a puppy, like six months really. He was always hanging out with Brave. He was always with her. She's a very robust dog, very, very kind dog, very, very easygoing with dogs, but also knows what she'll tolerate and what she won't. He never really got told off by another dog or didn't really realise that dogs would bark or show their teeth or bite or anything. He didn't say boo to a dog. He only met my own dogs and he only met the appropriate dogs like Venture, he never met because she doesn't like other dogs, so he wasn't allowed to meet her, and she wasn't allowed to meet him for a while. And I remember taking him to a dog show when he was about, I don't know, two or three. And the interesting thing was he'd been like a puppy through COVID. And I know there are a lot of people out there that say, My dog's a COVID dog, so he's like a lockdown puppy, and so he's got no social skills. And I think to myself, Tokyo was probably one of the most social dogs in the sense that he was able to handle any situation, but he also never needed to go and investigate them. He was just cool in his own skin. So if there were dogs reacting and lunging, he'd look over and then he'd carry on walking. Or if we were sat in the car park, he could lie at my feet, no lead on, and just watch what was happening in the world. And when I say car park, I mean at the training centre, Bowerland. If you haven't been here, get on over, it's Devon Dogs, it's a beautiful space to train in. But he could sit at my legs and not need to be involved in the other dogs. And the moment that I realized how little he'd been exposed to, I was walking through a dog show and a dog lunged in the back of the vehicle at him. And he literally, like he hit the deck, like, what the hell just happened? Like, you know, when a plane just goes right over your head and you weren't seeing it like a I don't know, like one of those crazy like red arrows or something. Like one of those moments where you're like, what just happened? He he really was so shocked that those things happened. Like he didn't even know those words came out of their mouth, but he was not aware of the swear words or all the things that that dogs might say or do and think about. And he was just shocked. He was completely shocked by it. Now, if I think back to his socialization, did he meet a hundred people in hats? No. Did he meet loads of different age and stage and different ways of people moving or anything like that? No. Did he meet loads of other dogs? No. However, did he have all good experiences? Yes. Did he learn through games and concepts? Yes. Did he have good genetics? Yes. Did he have a good upbringing? Yes. Did he ever get sort of told off or like worried by other dogs? No. And I really believe there's a lot to take from that because my first dogs grew up very much like Rupert, who had lots and lots of experiences, but often bad ones too. What do you think in hindsight of how that went for you being a first-time dog owner and you doing your blooming best? And I think that's the hardest bit. I know you were doing your best. And yet when I reflect back on my dogs and their back backgrounds and upbringings and everything that came from the beginning with them, I think there's so much to unpack. And you can see why some things go wrong, right?

SPEAKER_01: 6:06

Absolutely, yeah. I think he learned that dogs are a big deal, that dogs are important. When we got to walking and the advice I was given, which may well be right in some contexts, take him off lead as quickly as possible. But in this context, was taking off lead as quickly as possible, and he was bombing off the other side of a field to interact with lots of other dogs of lots of different ages and stages and sizes that I didn't know, and they're not really coming back. So he then learned other dogs are really exciting, really important, way more fun than you. But then at some point that tipped because he had a bad experience with another dog that I didn't know, and now he really does not like any dog, and it could be the nicest dog, and his immediate instinct is that dog's probably gonna get me, so I probably need to do something about that, and therefore I'm going to react and tell it I don't like it. And that's all come from overexposure, not putting in appropriate boundaries with experiences, not safeguarding his experiences, and not exposing him to too much and not doing enough at home to skill him up before he went into those environments.

SPEAKER_00: 7:23

Now, given that opportunity again, how might you do things differently, or what might you definitely change?

SPEAKER_01: 7:28

Um, we would definitely not do as l as much out and about stuff from early on. He would spend a lot more time playing games, building skills at home. He would probably still meet dogs, but they would be appropriate dogs that I knew were appropriate for him to interact with that weren't going to, I don't know, end up with it's his head in their mouth, which is one of the things that happened. He's he's just had experiences that were not good for him. And he's very quick to pair, and he's very quick to make associations, and it's quite difficult to unpick those with him.

SPEAKER_00: 8:00

So he he basically makes pairings really, really fast and learns anything that's bad very, very quickly. It takes him a long time to learn learn the good stuff effectively. Now, if we think back to um classes and the level of of what he did at class and the level of appropriateness, again, reviewing that, was he the right dog for a training class?

SPEAKER_01: 8:22

No, but I would say no with a provide with a kind of but because I bring into classes here and they're perfect for him because of the setup and because he's safeguarded, and because everybody here knows uh about not super nice dogs, and no dogs interact with other dogs. They come and they work in their own space. So that kind of class, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 8:43

That's great. I well I wasn't thinking of that answer, so that's a really nice one. Nice, Karen. Good job. And yeah, the the big thing for me, I think probably one of the biggest ones for him, if I think about it from what you just said, because I obviously don't know everything he did, and this is a conversation that we've not had before, was actually uh him being allowed to run over to other dogs because those situations are is it good, is it bad? Like what's gonna actually happen here because it could go either way. Yeah, and if he runs up to a poppy, my late naughty but nice dog, it's gonna be bad. If he runs up to a brave, it's gonna be neutral. If he runs up to a skittle, it's gonna be zoomies. Yeah, so you do depend on who you run up to, don't you? And then if he runs up to maybe, I don't know, venture, she's gonna scream. She's not gonna hurt him, but she's gonna scream, and that's gonna make him probably want to land on her. So, actually, all of those things they're just so out of your control. So the bit that's under your control or in your control is like you said, who you walk with or how they interact or where they interact or when they interact. And if I go back to Tokyo's upbringing, he actually had very little interaction with any new dogs, just the dogs he did interact with, and I'm lucky enough to have my own multiple dogs, they were all very appropriate. So he only learned appropriate. So he didn't really know how not to say please and thank you. He didn't really know how not to say, How may I help you? He didn't really know, and and with his mum having his brave had an accident as a as an older dog, um, and and whilst he was still young, he had to almost moderate himself to work around her. So he almost learned that gentleness, which I really enjoy in a dog, but actually didn't appreciate that it it needed to be learnt, the capacity needed to be there, but it was learnt through almost um modelling another dog. So that's cool as well. And then the other thing for him is he doesn't have other dogs to model so much, right?

SPEAKER_01: 10:21

Like he can't model and copy. No, and we were talking about this the other day, weren't we? I think if he had enough positive interactions with appropriate dogs, he would learn that they're not a threat and they're fine. And that doesn't mean that I would then put him back into those situations of charging off saying hi to every dog, absolutely not, but I do think we could unpick his learning.

SPEAKER_00: 10:40

Now, just thinking about this, when we think about Rupert, if there was one thing you wish you'd done differently, one thing out of everything that you wish you'd done differently as a youngster.

SPEAKER_01: 10:54

I do think it's letting him go and meet and greet random dogs. I do think that is the root of a lot of his, not necessarily his, I mean, he's got a personality, and I think he came with that personality, and I think he would have always potentially had struggles with the certain certain skills and concepts. But I do think that that is the thing that's kind of taken his path where it's gone a bit.

SPEAKER_00: 11:16

It's a really interesting thing. It's just what one thing that went through my head then was I wonder if Rupert had grown up in a group of like five or six or seven or eight dogs who are fairly stable. I think if he'd grown up in that stable household of lots of dogs and role models, say you grew up in a household of eight braves, like you're gonna be pretty sound on the whole, I would say. And it just depends on, again, who you're growing up around. Whereas actually his role model to a degree are the dogs he met and you. Now, I think this is really important question. When you meet other dogs or see other dogs or know there are other dogs in the environment, do you feel completely calm or not?

SPEAKER_01: 11:48

No, no, and that is a problem. It's a problem for me because it means I don't particularly enjoy walking him unless I know I'm in an environment where I have a loss of control over who we're gonna come across and what corners are going around. But it's a problem because of what I communicate to him down the lead. However much I try to relax and be chilled, I know that he knows that I'm worried. Isn't that massive?

SPEAKER_00: 12:12

Isn't it massive? And it was just one of those ones that just ran through my head. I bet one of the biggest struggles is how we respond as owners. And if you're listening right now and you're thinking, oh my god, this is so like my dog, and what I'm thinking. Well, 10 days to stop reactivity, it's available to you right now. It used to be 97 pounds for you, sexiness girl. You're here, you're listening. Go and get that course. 10 days to stop reactivity, or maybe just want to learn about all of this, more of this, because people could join our club, right? They could get involved. You've got the link, you're gonna have to remember it. You could get involved by joining the games club. The games club is an immense space to be. Recommend it, share it, make sure everybody knows about it because it prevents things like this ever happening in the first place. What's the link, Karen?

SPEAKER_01: 12:54

Absolute dogs.me forward slash join the club.

SPEAKER_00: 12:58

And once more, absolute dogs.me forward slash join the club. So if somebody was thinking, oh god, like I really need to socialise, socialise, socialise, socialise, over-socialise, and then do a bit more because my vet's given me the tick sheet and I'm not doing enough of it. What would you say they could do instead? Like, might it be valuable they were involved in something like Games Club or similar?

SPEAKER_01: 13:20

Absolutely. I would first of all say screw up the gloom sheet because the sheet is not useful unless it's the sheet in our puppy resources, which is a kind of alternative bingo style socialization done right, then otherwise screw up the sheets because use it as firewood.

SPEAKER_00: 13:35

Firewood goes in the fire, pop it in the fire, it is done. There is no socialization tick sheet from your vet. Your vet is gonna hear it here too. Like it is not a thing, it's so not what we do these days.

SPEAKER_01: 13:48

Unless you've got a really, really robust dog who can handle it, and even then I don't think it's what you should do.

SPEAKER_00: 13:53

Even then that you're relying on the sheer great genetics plus the fact that it can still go horribly wrong. Like it can go horribly wrong because you do not know the dogs they're running into.

SPEAKER_01: 14:03

No, and this is where Rupert's, I think I think it's where a lot of the reactivity towards other dogs comes from. I let him run towards a dog that I didn't know. I mean, not intentionally, but it's what happened. This was a rescue dog, first time out with its owner. It was on lead, but it did not appreciate him, and all he did was run up and say hi, I think, really. But the result was, and this was a Staffy Gross, so quite a big dog compared to him. He ended up with his face in its mouth.

SPEAKER_00: 14:35

And that was that was a real one-time learning event for Rupert. But how does his behaviour change after that event?

SPEAKER_01: 14:41

Yeah, really, quite significantly. He now does well. Staffies uh just know he just has to see one and he's not happy. And other dogs pretty much the same to some or to some degree or other, he will think it's a bad deal coming his way.

SPEAKER_00: 14:58

Now, guys, if you're listening, we know there is a way, we know there's a path for you, we know there's a better way. If you join our games club today, you get all of our 10 days to stop: reactivity, barking, stealing, all the things. You get all of that. And in addition to that, you get a library full of games. Now, what games do you enjoy with Rupert from the Games Club? And actually, is he easy to live with when playing games? He's brilliant when playing games.

SPEAKER_01: 15:24

And I think I I really will what ifs don't really help, do they? But if I'd have known this way of training from the beginning, not only would I not have overexposed him to all the things which have kind of shaped his his feelings about the world, I would have trained him so differently, and we would have just built such a different foundation. We have a brilliant relationship because we play games and because we enjoy tricks, and because of all the things we do, scent work is another brilliant thing for him. He loves it. But we would have a different picture. So games, I mean, all of them, anyone, they're all good. It depends what you want to work on. Middle, we love, middle toes, anything where I can keep him safe, actually. I really like that one for that. So if we're on about and I can see that there's somebody coming, popping him in middle, putting his feet on my toes is brilliant because it anchors him. He feels safe because he's protected between my legs. I can sense where he is and where his weight is, and if his weight shifts and if he's likely to back out or lunge forwards, and I can actually move with his feet on my feet as well.

SPEAKER_00: 16:27

And so similarly, uh KD, the same. It's one of my favourite games because of all of the reasons that you've just just said, and one of the biggest ones is that I can feel the pressure. So I know if she's mine or not. I know if she's off, I know if she's about to, she might be on my feet, but her intention is elsewhere. Like I can feel her on her toes, or I can feel that she's like dancing, and I can also feel when she gets tired. So I can feel that she's actually tired at the game I'm playing and she needs to have a break, and I'm and she needs to go. She's breaking it more and more. It's another form of a boundary. So, guys, if you're listening, I absolutely know that we can do better by our dogs when it comes to socializing. This is a message that needs to go worldwide. This is a message that's going to help dogs, it's going to help owners, it's going to help other dogs and other owners. It's going to ripple effect if we could just get it right. If we could just do that one thing, which is actually just share good information, right, Karen?

SPEAKER_01: 17:16

Yeah, because the the flip of this or the other side of the story, I guess, is you don't know those dogs that you're letting your dog run up to. What learning they've had and what experiences they've had, if everybody had learnt this, then all of these situations would probably be much less likely to happen.

SPEAKER_00: 17:34

And I would really love for more owners to know what to do in these situations and how to handle these situations. And I would also love to know that more owners felt better equipped in terms of if a dog does run over to my dog or if another dog maybe is is lunging, barking at the other end of the street, how should I diffuse that or whether I should walk into them or whether I shouldn't walk into them. What we're talking about is skilling owners up and getting owners really, really, really, really, really on board so that more people know about it. Now, the more people that know about this way of training, the more that you are going to create that riffle effect so that our dogs don't run into other dogs or that other dogs don't run into our dogs. So instead of complaining about the neighbour's dog, or instead of complaining about the dog that runs up to your dog on a walk, or instead of complaining about the loose dog that really doesn't, shouldn't be loose, shouldn't be off leash, shouldn't be doing whatever it's doing, let's actually do what's in your control. And what's in your control is to like it, to share it, to make sure you share some of the free resources, to do your part in helping dogs worldwide. What do you think, Karen?

SPEAKER_01: 18:33

Yeah, absolutely. And there's loads of free stuff to get hold of as well, isn't there, on the website? There's blogs, there's there's downloads, there's there's ways in if you're curious. Absolutely, I would say you you should be joining Games Club or getting hold of one of the courses. But if you want to kind of put your feet in the water a bit, there's loads of ways to do it.

SPEAKER_00: 18:52

I love that. Free resources, free blogs, free opportunities. Go get them, Tiger. That was this episode of the Sexy in the Squirrel podcast. I will see you for the next episode. And remember, stay sexy.