SPEAKER_01: 0:09

Welcome to the Absolute Dog Text in a Squirrel podcast. I'm Lauren Langman. I'm one of the world's leading dog trainers, and it's my mission to help owners become their dog's top priority. In each episode, you'll discover how to gain trust and communicate with your dog like never before, creating unbreakable bonds that make you the most exciting part of their world. So fight talk. We're talking 50 cuffs. And I love that you were teaching this week and you've been teaching here at the training center. Yes. And you said one of the topics that the group have surface surprised you on and shocked you on is that they are really shocked by fighting.

SPEAKER_00: 0:44

That I have fighting in my pack. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 0:47

And that they're really surprised that as a dog trainer, you might have dogs that don't get on. And I'm going to say, not only do you have dogs that might not get on, I also have dogs that might not get on. And owning it, like owning it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00

Absolutely. We own it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01

Now just give a couple of examples of two or or or your dogs that might not have uh the best of relationships all the time and the scenario.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08

So the story came from me bringing Ulla in to demonstrate with her. And she's like, you know, very, very operant, lovely dog, very responsive to everything I ask her to do. My favorite favourite. A little bit angsty if another dog was about, but you know, sort of have a little bark if another dog was about. But generally looks like the perfect dog. And I said, her home she has to be managed very closely. Really? Yes. Because she snipes at my older boy, and he doesn't like that. So he will discipline her for that. He disciplining her for that makes no difference to her whatsoever. It never has made any difference. But unfortunately, when he does it, if my other third dog is present, she does what I call a Harry Hill. Bite she'll pile in. And she piles in. And there's lots of snarling and bobbing about handbags, I call it. Handbags at the door. Handbagging going on. And they have to be separated and put in on bounds. Temporary spaces to calm down.

SPEAKER_01: 2:14

Now that for sure is a scenario. And I know that you've got ball collies, so herding breed, very eye-y, and that's probably part of what triggers it, the eye. And I'm going to give you another example. I'm going to raise you, your fight. I'm going to give you my dog venture or adventure, as we like to call her. So venture, if she was to have a fight with anyone, actually, she often she's quite a funny dog. She doesn't always see everything peripherally around her. So she'll be in her own merry world. And then another spaniel will normally run into her in some way or want past her or run too close. She might be snuffling or eating or sniffing. And it's like red mist comes down and she just goes, and so all of my dogs have learned to adjust around her. So everyone gives her a wide berth. And they kind of go, avoid her, bit nuts. Yeah. And they can see them. I mean, you know it when you're I'm gonna say it, when you were at school, there are certain children you knew to give more space than others, right? And I was a school teacher. So you'd watch kids in their dynamics, they'd know how hard they could rod or push. My dogs all give her a wide birth. They all give her a wide birth. None of them try to like get too cozy with her, none of them try to play with her, they just all give her a wide birth. They all go, interesting. Now, a new dog doesn't know to do that. And so anytime I introduce a new dog into my group, you'll always see at some point they get too close. And I will keep interrupting them and I'll keep moving them. But at some point they're gonna get too close to her. They're gonna get too close to her. It's just like accidents happen or the moment is wrong, or something just goes wrong, and that's her moment of like bang, bang, bang. And depending on how that dog reads it, that dog has multi-options. They can fight, fight, fight, flight, fiddle about. A lot of dogs will run from her because she's quite dragon. Some dogs will bite her back, and other dogs will sort of dance about. And the current youngster I've got shall dance about around her, like, whoa, this is fun. Um, but you watch some dogs and they'll leg it and they'll squeal and they'll be like dying. And you watch other dogs that will come forward and go, that's fine. Yeah, okay. Don't you? So that would be another scenario I might see it in. Now, what other scenarios might you see it happening, or could you see it happening within your group? What sort of times might it happen? Or give me the example of when it might happen.

SPEAKER_00: 4:20

So it's often it's about resources a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_01: 4:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 4:23

So if food is around, if there is going to be movement, so we live upstairs, so the stairs are an issue. Yeah. Because it's a pinch point and there's a race to get up the stairs or down the stairs or wherever we're going to. Any knowledge that we might be going on the van. We like going on the van. Because that's where we when we go to fun times. When we go to training or we go for a walk. So that could be. They love it, don't they?

SPEAKER_01: 4:54

It's like adventure time.

SPEAKER_00: 4:55

They know that the what these things mean.

SPEAKER_01: 4:58

Do you have anything like so? One of my examples, Linda, and this is where I've actually learned venture's not allowed on the sofa. And the reason venture's not allowed on the sofa is she might be sat here and another dog hops up to get on the lap, and she just wakes up dragons sort of roar fire out of her mouth, and she'll be like, and it's quick. And in those moments, she could also bite you. And it's not that she, and I think people get this very wrong, they think that the dog intended to bite you. There's no intention, it's like bang, and they react. So it's a very, very quick reaction. And she would be that dog. She's never actually bitten me, but I don't put myself in her way. And I'm also very fast to just grab and go. I've also learned she doesn't get to come on sofas. So actually, for her, it's a privilege that she's not allowed. And actually, majority of my dogs I don't let on sofas because of that. However, I've been looking after a friend's dog, really nice little dog, Sheba. She has a similar tendency. If she sat with you, so resources don't just have to be a bone or a toy, do they? They could be a sofa or you.

SPEAKER_00: 5:55

Yeah, or you. Yes, yes, yeah. So I've got a toy poodle. And he resource guards me. Does he? Oh bobble. He's no the angelic bobble flies at anybody that comes near me if he's on my lap.

SPEAKER_01: 6:12

Wow, I can't imagine that little cloudy fluffy puff.

SPEAKER_00: 6:16

He tries so hard to make himself seem so intimidating, he's gonna have your throat out. But of course they all go, Oh blessed bobble. So he's he is resourcing over you. Yeah, over me. Yes, yes, yes. I I won't overthink, I mean like toys and stuff like that. Wow. And he we've I've got a new puppy. I can't wait to meet the new puppy.

SPEAKER_01: 6:42

Okay. So anything that he thinks might be his. Now, how do you manage that on a day-to-day basis? So, what sort of measures have you put into place? Because obviously, you're a good dog trainer, you're a good dog owner, you don't want fights. Like fights, and and also let's be really practical here. Linda's got a small toy breed, and I think it's worth having this conversation. I had a previous friend who loved training dogs, left her two terriers with her Nan's Chihuahua. And the chihuahua got it. The chihuahua died. Yeah. The chihuahua died. Like it wasn't like uh the chihuahua was she came back to a dead dog. I mean, that for me is horrific, and that's something that nobody should ever have to come home to. But also, let's be logical here: who leaves two terriers with a chihuahua where they don't live together or know each other ridiculously well? He was, if I remember right, Rock Rocky was his name. Cute little thing, actually, real sweet little dog. And the two terriers were quite tenacious and they were terrier in their nature, and they were proper terriers and good little terriers, really, but but had that way with them. So if something had spatted, they wouldn't have necessarily known that they didn't have great disengagement and they didn't have great skills to leave that situation, and and they weren't created or penned or um separated anyway, and you're out of the building, so you can't stop it. And you're talking like a probably a two-kilo dog versus a ten-kilo dog. There just isn't the and and terriers with the bite and the jaws that they have anyway. So I think we've got to think of these things. So, what I and I'll tell you mine in a minute, what management do you think?

SPEAKER_00: 8:09

The first experience of dog fighting was Jack Russell on board of collie. I had Jack Russell's, and then I got my first border collie, and when she hit two, one of my one of the Jack Russell was a dislike. Yeah. That we went to the bet several times. Yeah. Because that got really serious. So but so now you know more. What sort of management things do you put in? So first of all, if I was leaving the dogs, even I haven't got a terrier in the house or but I've got Bobble, yeah, little tiny toy poodle amongst all the collies. And a pup. Yeah, and a puppy now. I I the the two girls particularly are always crated. Yeah. So I never leave the house with all the dogs roaming about.

SPEAKER_02: 8:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 8:50

Uh my older boy, who's 12, he's he's allowed to be free in the house. Yeah. But Bobble is created for his safety, and the two and the two girls are crated for their safety, and the pup would obviously be created for your safety. For my safety. So so if I go out, my dogs are my most of my dogs are crated. So I know that they're safe.

SPEAKER_01: 9:08

And I think that's such a big thing, isn't it? So for me, venture again would be created and not left loose with other dogs because she doesn't know how to look after herself in the sense that she actually doesn't know how to protect herself. As in to safeguard from a situation going really wrong, like a much bigger dog could really tell her where to go and what to do and and and and how that's going to end. So the crates are your first thing. What else do you have?

SPEAKER_00: 9:33

After leaving the hook, leaving the house, the crates are my number one. When I'm at home, then I manage the situation by using crates in around the house. So I've got a crate in the living room, and this is not an ugly old metal one, but you know, smart smart crate that fits in the furniture. So Ulla will spend some time in that in the evening. Sensi will spend some time in that in the morning. So they have that I sort of rotate them around. Yeah, so different. So they so we have so they have time, they time out, time to be able to chill out.

SPEAKER_01: 10:08

Because actually, this is really important to acknowledge when you're looking for trouble like that all the time, it's quite exhausting. Yeah. And it's actually quite tiring for Ulla to be in that space, right?

SPEAKER_00: 10:19

Yeah, yeah. Yes, absolutely. And and they, you know, people think, oh, creating a dog is cruel, it's unfair. It's actually very relaxing. It gives them time to just chill. Because if you think about it, if they were a balanced dog without a struggle, they would go somewhere and curl up and go to sleep. So, what's the difference between that us helping them by putting them in a container that encourages them to curl up and go to sleep? Yeah, but I mean we may as well consider it a sleepbox. If we consider it a sleep box, something like sleep pod. Yes. Sleep pod. Or a ch a chill chill pad or something. Yeah, yeah. Um so so that's the number one. So I use that a lot. If I'm going, I I use leads a lot that I will tether. Yeah. So tether one or the other so that there can't be any conflict. And then I have strategies. It's interesting you talk about the sofa. So for me in my house, the sofa is the place where we they don't fight.

SPEAKER_01: 11:14

It's so interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 11:16

So if Ping, that's my boy, is on the floor and Ula comes in and snipes at him because I say to him, Ping, pop it up, and that means get on the sofa. Yeah. He gets less likely to and then she comes by going, doing it. And he just goes, Oh, it's you, yeah, and nothing happens.

SPEAKER_01: 11:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:38

So it's that then. Safe reception, you a safe space for him at different levels to help them to manage it their uh their conflict. Yeah. So so I use so that's a bit you could use a boundary. So if you had a boundary, ping later, ping gets you bed. Yeah. And then what I do is rather than just leave Ulla with her distress, because by that time, if she's sniping, yeah, she's stressed, yeah. I just say to her, Ulla, don't you think you need to go to bed? And she'll go, Oh yeah. Yeah, I probably should go to bed now. I don't think I'm oh yes, I think I do need to go to bed. Like you do with the toddler, don't you? Uh is it bedtime?

SPEAKER_01: 12:13

Is it bedtime?

SPEAKER_00: 12:15

Bedtime. So don't you think you need to go to your bed? And she goes, Oh yeah, and she goes and stands by her crate. Yeah. She always gets fed for going in it. So throw a few treats in, in she goes, shut the door. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01: 12:27

Now for the person that panics, that because you've thrown treats in, have you rewarded it? Because I know so many people think like that. Remember, they're not in a real space of trying to action prompt or or or learn or earn here. What they're actually in is quite a heightened space of stress. Yeah. And so in that space, they're not really all you're doing is interrupting something from getting much worse. And helping them make the good choice.

SPEAKER_00: 12:47

Yeah, putting putting them in the right space again. You're good, you're saying here's the good choice. The good choice is go here, there's a few sweeties, and then you'll chill out.

SPEAKER_01: 12:55

Now, in terms of how the girls get on, have they ever had any squabbles? The girls squabble. Yeah. So what would be your scenarios around the girls and what might make them squibble? And what would be your go-to to interrupt that or maybe even prevent that happening in the first place?

SPEAKER_00: 13:13

So Ola is I I don't this it's almost like this is hardwired in Hullet, which is this is the the collie nip. Yeah, yeah. So she'll she just doesn't seem to be able to control that very well at all. Yeah. So the inhibition isn't there for her. Not good at all with which is what she does with with ping, but she does it as also does it with Sensi. And Sensi. So she'll control if Sensi wants to go up the garden for a week. She'll control her movement. She'll control her movement and she'll wait for her and then she'll run at her and nip at her. Yeah. And Sensi doesn't like it, she gets fed up with it.

SPEAKER_02: 13:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:48

So she'll do a Sensi will then do a lot of avoiding, but then if every now and again when the opportunity arises, Sensi will pile in. Yeah, yeah. And give Ulla a seeing too.

SPEAKER_01: 14:01

So how have you managed that or how have you prevented that from being something that happens regularly? Interrupt a lot of Ullah's herding. Yeah, so block it, move her, tether her, and I know stop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:12

Ulla, stop it. And she goes, oh no, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:15

So it's almost like it's so hardwired she can't knock.

SPEAKER_00: 14:18

It doesn't matter. No, no, yeah. I think people don't understand that that's something that it ultimately you can't do. It's her working instinct. Train an out of them. It's instinctive. It's instinct genetics.

SPEAKER_01: 14:29

And what you need to do is work on teaching her other pathways and is strong. That's right.

SPEAKER_00: 14:34

Absolutely. So interrupting and then giving her another choice. Interrupting, giving her another choice. And then I manage the time that they are together in the the versus what arousal level the pack is in.

SPEAKER_01: 14:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 14:46

So when the pack is calm, I can show you a video of all of them asleep on the sofa.

SPEAKER_01: 14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:53

Absolutely chilled out next to one another. Lovely.

SPEAKER_01: 14:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:57

But then if I get up and go, I don't know, I might go and make a cup of tea or I might think about I'm going to do some dog, put some dog food together. Yeah. Then I've got to create somebody. Yeah. Because as soon as that arousal goes up, it can change the dynamic. Then we're going to change the dynamic.

SPEAKER_01: 15:55

I think it's, I mean, it makes complete sense. When you live with multi-dogs, you definitely know it. Now, a couple of my strategies, and again, feel free to chip in on any of them. A couple of my strategies is we're very lucky here at Bowerland, we've got lots of space. So I'll go, okay, you two are in the courtyard, you three are in the main yard. So I actually will just utilise the space. I have venture, can now eat with other dogs. She can share her, she has they have supplement meals in the morning in a bowl. So she's got a supplement meal and she can have that with Wilde, but I wouldn't put someone like Blink who's deaf and a bit gung-ho and will put her head in the bowl. I'm not going to do that to her because she doesn't read her well, and Blink is a bit senile and so doesn't read the scenario, so puts her head in the bowl. So it's it's also managing the individual dogs in the scenario. Same as a puppy, I wouldn't put a puppy in there. It's like lamb to the slaughter. So that lamb is going to the slaughter, and venture is quite willing to have roast lamb and the dressings. So she really will make a meal of that. And so there's no need for her to. But also the other thing to identify is venture doesn't want to be in that position, but the puppy doesn't read it correctly. So I wouldn't put a puppy in that scenario. So I quite like separate courtyards or spaces or rooms or gates or we've got baby gates all over the place.

SPEAKER_00: 16:58

I think we've got to roll out one. Agreed. But various things. So you'll be on the baby gates. You're in that one, you're in that space.

SPEAKER_01: 17:04

So gated communities really work for dogs like these. Another one for me is knowing that certain resources, for example, I've got rabbit's ears that live in the van. Those of you that listen are like, rabbits' ears? Well, rabbit's ears are quite a nice natural snack. If you use things like bug canine from AO canine instead of worm, which is what we do, for me, things like the rabbit's ears and things like that, nice snacks. I've actually learned a little tip. We chop ours into like four. So we give them little like snacks as they're moving in out so that we can give them multi-times for getting in and out of things. But quite quickly, I realized by putting them in the middle of the crate, Sheba started to guard them. So Sheba is a friend's dog, but she thought that was hers to guard. So also watching where I have resources because putting them in the middle of the van when all the dogs are going to jump in the middle of the van because that's like yours, the van is like adventure party time, because they all pile in the van, and Sheba's like, I'm gonna be the boss of all of you. And there's the like handbags at dawn and the scuffle and the like Tasmanian devils like moving around. For me, and they don't even see it coming, so the other dogs don't see it coming, they're just getting in the van and they're really happy. So thinking about where you place your resources, I think is quite big. And for me, like you said, pinch points. I don't know if you want to explain pinch points quickly, because I think that's such a good thing to explain.

SPEAKER_00: 18:09

If the dogs, if you've got even two dogs sometimes going through a doorway or down some stairs, or you know, out the back, a gate, or anything like that, when they have to share space, then narrowing, then there's some there's some stress involved in that. And and if they're liable to react under stress, then it's better to so ventures would definitely be, you know, the main gates that we just walked in, the little ones of the clip, that would be there.

SPEAKER_01: 18:35

If I let another dog in and she's on the gateway and she thinks there's food around, it's like I'm never and so it's it's so quick as well. I think that's the other thing to know. It's so quick. Now, what should you do in a dog fight? Because I think that's something that's that's important to know. Don't put your hands in there, so don't rush your hands in the way. I'm very quick, actually, with my hands, and I'm like and out, but often it's a scruff and a collar. I'm not saying that's right, I'm not saying that's wrong. I think you sometimes have to do what works with your individual household. For me, a sharp noise, a clap, a bang, even me being like like type thing, like kind of me turning into a Tasmanian devil for a second, like can sometimes shock them. Yeah, a tin bowl on the floor, like something that just like surprises them. So the element of not, and and uh I do think that we're talking like a lot of handbag type bites. We're not talking dogs who are trying to bite to kill.

SPEAKER_00: 19:24

No, I've I have had I have had bite bite to kill is different. Bites that are bite to kill, and they and you handle the different different type of dog. But the one thing I would say is it's really important to stay calm but act quickly. Yeah, it's it is, it's very quick in past. Laser focused, intentional, and very intentional, but not dice, let your own arousal go up. So no screaming and shouting and anything like that. Noise, yes, yeah, but not in but not in a stressy.

SPEAKER_01: 19:51

It's really like precision, it's like you're joining in. Yeah, it's like laser targeted. I was out yesterday with three horses, and we were out, and a youngster was with us, and her horse just kind of did like the rocking horse excitement, and she screamed and she grabbed, and you could see her like going. And it's that moment of like you need to almost sing a Humpty Dumpty song or like sat on the wall, and and all the King's horses, and you need to like go through a rhythm because I just don't. A pheasant popped out as I was going around a corner, and this horse went up that I was on. She went like right up at like all of her, all four. And I was just like, Oh, this is what just happened. But I think the more you can be a bit like you said, precise, fast, intentional, yeah, but also you know you need to be in business, but also you don't need to get yourself emotionally involved.

SPEAKER_00: 20:38

Yes, right. It's really important, very important. So, so so it Whatever you choose to do, you have to do it quickly, calmly, firmly, and then make sure that they're separated.

SPEAKER_01: 20:50

Mean business and at the same time emotionally stay stay grounded.

SPEAKER_00: 20:55

And the one thing I don't do, which I used to, I don't punish them. Agreed.

SPEAKER_01: 21:00

I love that you said you used to, because actually you've moved, you've moved away from that world, haven't you? Um so you used to punish and now you don't because you've moved away from that space. What changed your mind with punishment?

SPEAKER_00: 21:11

Because I now understand that in those sorts of situations, well, in a majority of situations. They're doing what dogs do. They don't mean to be mean. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 21:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:21

They're just that they're choosing the best choice they can make in that moment.

SPEAKER_01: 21:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:27

And that choice isn't very a very good one. And all you've got to do is help them to choose something different or be different.

SPEAKER_01: 21:32

Give a different path.

SPEAKER_00: 21:34

And any punishment, any any disapproval from me as an owner would would only make them feel bad about their relationship with me, not about what's just happened. It will have nothing to do with what's just happened.

SPEAKER_01: 21:47

And I think that's important, isn't it? Like that is important to acknowledge actually my relationship lasts a long time. Yes. Now I've been bitten in a dog fight, and I've also been bitten by a dog. Have you ever had any of those scenarios? And are you willing to share any?

SPEAKER_00: 22:01

So the this first example I had, which was the collie. I um uh we'd had a couple of fights, and then I I worked in London at the time, and I came home from work, and I went in, opened the front door, went in the house, and the collie came out to see me, and I saw the red mist come down over the terrier's eyes, and I had a raincoat over my arm, and I and I'm like I went, I did panicked and I threw the raincoat over the top of the collie. Nicely done. I threw the raincoat over the top of the collie and sat on it, and but there was one collie leg stuck out like this, and the terrier went and latched on so quick, and I meant was into the you know through the skin straight away. And and I tried to get the terrier off and it went back at you.

SPEAKER_01: 22:57

So I did a rebite me. And those bites hurt. Those bites hurt. That had to be stitched up. Yeah, they hurt.

SPEAKER_00: 23:04

There's a re-grip. So the the collie had to be stitched up. You had to be stitched up. Yeah, and I learned a lot from that. I learned a lot.

SPEAKER_01: 23:11

And it hurts. It hurts. I think the other thing, if you've ever been bitten, as much as we love dogs, it hurts. And it can make you feel quite sick. Yeah. So I've always felt very sick when I've been bitten. Bruising. And it does hurt for layers and layers. Now I was bitten on my hand. Mine was my own fault, they normally are. Two entire males in a class biting. Owners had let them get pretty close. And I just went to sort of swipe in, but I went in. I went into them. I was only about 19 at the time. I thought I was a great dog trainer. They redirect them. And they just came straight onto me, like literally. They were trying to go to each other, but just got me. Second bite incident I had was not a fight, was uh me walking out of a building on a Vimar on a behaviour case. And as I turned the door to go out the door, it flattened me. And it really did flatten me. And it just makes you realise that you're not invincible. Like you're really it can happen. Now, fights, bites, all of the above. I think most of all, we probably need to know that it's us that need managing more than the dogs, and us that need to manage situations to enable them to have success because my household on the whole are really harmonious, and I know yours are too. Majority of the time.

SPEAKER_00: 24:13

And my concern often with people with their dogs when you know they don't do dog sports or do anything, they just want their dogs to be part of the family and happy, and the dog starts scrapping or whatever. The solution is not necessarily to re-hone them. No, and people are quick to do it, they are very quick to do it, and it's very, very sad for the dog and for the people because it's hard to say, oh, I you know, I give up. I have to give up on that dog. Give up. There's a lot more that you can do, a lot of management that you can do, and a lot of organizing for the dogs to make their bet their their lives quite valuable and and happy, and and everybody stays together.

SPEAKER_01: 24:49

Which is perfect. That's the goal, isn't it? Let's keep everyone together. In fact, that's one of the things that all of the rehoming centers want to do. They want to keep everything together. So, what can they do to keep everything together? Now, most of all, Linda, I'm pleased that you shared it because so many people won't talk about topics like this. And when we when we were sat talking about what we were going to talk about, you were like fighting. I want to talk about fighting. I was like, oh, she's feisty, feisty one today. So really appreciate you uh being here chatting through your experience of dog fights and what we can do about it and how we can manage it and actually how we look after ourselves uh in that scenario. If you ever have experienced anything like that, do always seek the advice of professional professionals like Linda, like myself, absolute dogs. Uh we do consults, we do online, we do in person, we do all of the above. So do seek help. Um, and we absolutely know there's a better way for you and your dog. And most of all, we want to keep together, right, Linda?

SPEAKER_00: 25:38

Do we want to keep everybody?