SPEAKER_01: 0:09

Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sexy in a Squirrel Podcast. I'm Lauren Langman. I'm one of the world's leading dog trainers, and it's my mission to help owners become their dog's top priority. In each episode, you'll discover how to gain trust and communicate with your dog like never before, creating unbreakable bonds that make you the most exciting part of their world. Okay, welcome to the Sex in a Squirrel Podcast. Mel, it's amazing to have you. And when we were looking through the topics that we were gonna talk about tonight, today, this morning, whatever time it is with you, I think the cool thing was I wanted to talk about every one of them. I was like, please let me talk with that one, that one, that one, and that one. But talking electrotherapies, you're a physiotherapist for dogs. And the best part is you know way more than me, but earlier you did call me a bit of a boy in this respect. What do you mean by that? You said Lauren, you just made me giggle. What did you mean?

SPEAKER_00: 1:03

Oh, well it's just the the picture you sent me was of a big gadget and it was big and powerful. And it was just like I imagined, like I mean, like my Gary, my husband's like with power tools and gadgets and things like that. And yeah, I like that, and look, I like it because it's big and it looks cool, and it it doesn't really matter whether it does what I want it to, but it looks amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26

So I'm out there wanting to buy all of the electrotherapies for dogs, and obviously, electrotherapies, I think it's worth us considering because these could be used on injuries, elderly dogs who are arthritic or painful or experiencing just some degeneration effectively, I suppose. Um, or you could be using these potentially uh to uh look after a sports dog, either pre-um sports work or post-sports work. And I really think it's worth us knowing about them because for me, I was just saying, not just for our dogs, but actually for me, it's it's for we have ponies, so these could be used in in other sports and animals, and these are also things that you could consider even for yourself. And I was just talking to someone today about plantar fasciitis, a customer of mine, and she said she's getting that and and she's being treated with shockwave, and actually what a difference shockwave was making for her. So I think these are therapies, not just electrotherapies, but all therapies that we should actually be aware of in our peripheral vision, not only for uh our dogs, but it could even be ponies, ourselves, and other things. And I know, for example, I own a laser, I've used it when I've had a twisted ankle and a sprained ankle and a sore ankle, and it really did put it right, and it put it right quite quickly, non-invasively, and actually it's not ever aggravated me again, which is pretty impressive considering I only had three sessions. I was also talking to a friend of mine, she had a frozen shoulder, and three sessions later from a laser um therapy. It it the frozen shoulder isn't giving her any aggravation. She only had the the early stages of it, but she she caught it quickly. Tell us where do we start when it comes to electrotherapies? Because as you know, Mel, I would buy all the toys, particularly ones. I like electro ones.

SPEAKER_00: 3:06

Yeah. I think with things like electrotherapy, the main thing I think is to be guided by somebody that you work with, with your animals, whether that be dogs, horses, or yourself. They are generally safe as long as they're used in the right way at the right time. But there are some things, some contraindications and precautions that do come with each electrotherapy that there happens to be out there, whether that be tens, ultrasounds, pulse electromagnetic therapy, which has many names to it, laser, there's like you say, mentioned there's shockwave. There's so many, and there's more coming all the time as well, but they do have some contraindications and precautions. So as long as you're working with somebody who understands what those are, so that you don't use them in the wrong way and therefore actually make things worse or make the dog uncomfortable. I mean, shockwaves come a long way. It used to be very loud and very uncomfortable, but I think things have changed since then. But I think some people still find it very uncomfortable. And so what one person might find okay, another person might not. Now, the thing with our dogs can't say very clearly, not quite so sure about that. We can't say to them, look, it might hurt a little bit, but it's going to make it a lot better. So shockwave works by basically restarting the inflammatory process. So if you're in an inflammatory cycle that's constantly going round, the shock weight therapy helps to restart it and get you through the process in the correct way, because there's various stages to healing, and it's really important that we go through those stages in the correct order. And the inflammatory stage is an important part of healing, and that's why things like rice, as we'd all know, where we rest, eyes, compression, elevation, used to stand. Now that doesn't actually stand, that that's not sort of the way that it's peace and love are the now acronyms for that. So we sort of like have moved away from going, we must prevent this inflammatory phase from happening. And we need to allow that inflammatory phase to happen because it performs a an important part of the whole healing process. But what we don't want to do is be stuck in that inflammatory phase and therefore not move through the other three stages of healing. So I think whatever electrotherapy we use, we need to be careful with because we that, you know, it can cause issues. So, for example, if you were to use, and I know we've talked about this like with when we looked at Eva, things like cancers as well. If we use electrotherapies in the wrong place around a cancer, we could actually stimulate that cancer to grow, which is not what we want. So, and there are various other different diseases that we don't want to use certain electrotherapies with. So it's really important to not be blanket with it and go, Oh, right, I'm going to use my laser on this area because this is where I think it's you know uncomfortable. But we need to sort of take the whole picture into account.

SPEAKER_01: 6:10

So, one of the things that I know that you um have used whenever you've treated dogs um around um me and and any of our team, you've used, I think, probably primarily the biomag and the laser. So those are things I've seen you use a lot. Why would you use them? Where would you use them? How would you use them? And and like what are their differences for you? Because I think this is one of those things that um you you've got two different things. Just give everybody that's listening maybe a quick brief like whistle stop on on both of those meltdowns.

SPEAKER_00: 6:43

Well, basically, laser is light therapy, whereas the biomag, which is it's a biomag is basically a brand, but it's pulsed electromagnetic therapy. So that basically creates like a field of current that has an impact at the cellular level. So it's not using light, it's using a different type of wave to create a different response. But the reason I choose mainly those two is because of the efficacy of the treatment, the ease at which it's tolerated as well. The thing for me as well is I'm a single practitioner, I have a very small business, I don't have a really big income and budget and things like that. So my tools are limited as well what I can financially afford. So things like the big veterinary hospitals will have things like Shockwave. When you're looking at sort of something that's worth about£20,000, that's just not something that I can feasibly bring into my equation and offer. So if I felt that that was going to be a beneficial therapy to a client I had, I would suggest they go somewhere that did have that availability. But I don't have that in my availability. I do have muscle stim, which I to be honest, I don't really use. I do have a few um rehab cases, like some spinal patients. So I might, if I think the muscle loss is going to be more significant, I might use my muscle stem there because so that I prevent the muscle loss so that as the neurological function returns, we haven't lost muscle mass. Otherwise, we've got that to get over as well. So again, it's sort of case by case as to what you'd use. And like I say, you know, the things like the Biomag being a brand, it's relatively affordable for most people. I mean, it's not cheap, but it's not thousands and thousands of pounds. I know so the laser that I have is a very, I want to say, it's not very flashy one because it's built just to do its job. So it doesn't have a big technical screen and a touch screen, and it doesn't have all preset functions. It requires me to know basically how many joules I want to give, how what the hertz I want to produce, so what depth am I going to. So I have to mathematically calculate how long I want to deliver that treatment for. So for somebody who doesn't know those things, it wouldn't necessarily, unless, for example, if I said to you, right, you go by this same laser I've got, and I would just say to you, right, you're going to do it for two minutes on this hertz in this area. And then all you have to do is literally do exactly that. You've got no calculations to do, nothing else, but you can just implement it.

SPEAKER_01: 10:07

But they're both really, I mean, that's that that for me is really interesting, just just to hear like how you might use that. And what what might you use the biomag for and what might you use the laser for differently, or would you always use them in combination?

SPEAKER_00: 10:21

Not always in combination, no. So the I think the thing at time could be an element. How much time have you got available? And what are you trying to achieve by delivering that therapy? You know, laser will give quite an immediate pain relief effect if you're looking at something like muscle tension, you know, can use it on trigger spots. I actually have a problem with my neck, and I laser my own neck. I can't treat other people, but I can do it to myself because that's me. And I know if I don't, whenever I treat my neck, I'm actually feeling so much better. I feel I've got good range of motion, I've got no pain and discomfort. If I don't, I end up feeling very uncomfortable, I can't sleep, and it affects so many things. So I know how I feel when I've got it right for me. So that's why I want to get it right for the animals that I treat. And that's why feedback's really important as well. So for I mean, you know this, I was going, so how are they now? You know, I want to know the effect of it because whatever you're doing, it needs to have an effect. If it doesn't have effect, there's no benefit to doing it.

SPEAKER_01: 11:25

And I think that's probably one of the biggest things for me when I invited someone here to do massage for my dogs. I watched her do the massage, I thought it looked fine. I then asked her if she wanted to massage uh me. I don't know whether she wanted to or not, but I was paying for her to do the massage. So I was like, please could you just massage? She was like, Yeah, I'll do that. And actually, it was awful, Mel. And that for me taught me that there's no point me using someone like this, probably for the dogs either. I think when I say it was awful, it just didn't, it didn't touch anything, it was it was just not there. And I think some people or some treatments, like for me, it's very easy, isn't it? With with my ankle, I can go right, I'm gonna target that on my ankle. But if you don't know where you're targeting, or you don't know what you're doing, or you just don't have I believe that therapists, there are therapists and therapists, and I believe that some therapists are very, very intuitive with what they do, as well as the science and the backing of great training. I also think there's a level of intuition as well that's needed. And so when you're treating a dog, you do need to look at the dog and see the dog in front of you for what they are and see how they're responding and what they're they're up to. But listening to what you said there about the laser and using it on yourself, recently, and just to for all listeners, we you can use it on yourself because it's your laser and it's your person. Mel can't laser other people as I can't laser other people. I've got laser that I can use it on myself. I used a PEF therapy on myself. Mel, I it we well, I sent you the video, and I think most people thought I was having some form of problem or like jolting and and maybe even a seizure, it looked quite uncomfortable. But actually, the level of freeing up my shoulder is insane after that treatment. I couldn't work out because I've not experienced PMF before, I've never put the biomag on me. I used the big piece of kit, shiny gadget that was loaned to me, and I put it on my shoulder, and honestly, I felt like a different person afterwards. Like I've got the range that I just it just doesn't hurt, like it doesn't hurt, and that is crazy. Now, what is that in PEMF that is doing that? And why did that machine work? And I'm just completely like blown away by that, and to the point that I then want to put it on everything. I want to I'm like, I want to do my housework with the machine. Like, I literally sit on the machine, I wanted to lie on the machine. I love the machine, I would like to buy the machine, but anyway, what worked about that machine and what made it that work, or what was it doing to me?

SPEAKER_00: 13:45

Well, I mean, obviously, I'm not familiar with that specific machine myself, but it will that it will have mean that you've chosen the right setting, that you had it on for the right length of time, and you targeted the correct area.

SPEAKER_01: 13:58

PEMF, so similar PEMF, I take it to biomag in the sense that they would all principle. What is the principle? What is actually happening? Why is that working in my shoulder?

SPEAKER_00: 14:09

What is it? So again, it does depend on the setting. But for example, the one of the settings on the biomag, the machine that you know we've used, there is a setting that is for pain relief and it's for neurological function. And what it does, so basically, if you think back to the science, you think of a cell membrane, a cell, a cell has a membrane around it. Now, when that member, when that cell gets damaged, that membrane has a little gap. And what it can do, it can leak out the substances from within the cell, and therefore that cell can't function properly. So, what the part the bought the pulse electromagnetic therapy on that setting does is it helps to repolarize that cell membrane so that it closes back up and keeps the contents enclosed within it, so therefore it can function correctly as well. And obviously, we have these cells in every part of our body, and they can be in, you know, we have different cells in muscle, different cells in tent tendons and ligaments and fascia and all throughout the body. And that machine obviously was targeted the right area with the right strength at the right time. And although I know we laughed about how it made you look, when we looked at the videos of you using it on the dogs, the dogs were really, really comfortable and happy with it. And for me, that is really all that matters. If the dogs couldn't tolerate it, it wouldn't matter how good it is. I don't see the point of using something if we've actually got to physically make the dog be there and accept the treatment that we are trying to deliver. And I think that's partly going back to sort of what you said about some in some therapists are more intuitive. But I know we've done, I've done some treatments with some of your dogs, and I know I remember with Easy, she laid down for one of her treatments, and you went, She has never ever laid down. I did one with Skittles and she was falling asleep, and you were like, This doesn't happen with these particular dogs.

SPEAKER_01: 16:10

And then it actually taught me, Mel, that if they weren't lying down, I probably needed to work through getting them more comfortable to be able to work towards that, or something wasn't as good as it needed to be for them. Because actually, since then, I would say Skittle does seem to sleep more and more during a treatment with me when I'm doing laser or biomag or um some form of um PMF or treatment. Um so whenever she's doing that, I would say I get that more and more. And I think that's now because I've seen that she can be like that. I almost want to make sure that my sessions are like that. Um, that's what you aim for.

SPEAKER_00: 16:43

Yeah, absolutely. Because we want them to be part of the session. We don't want to be delivering treatment to the animal and they have to put up with what's going on. They need to be part of it, they need to be part of the process, they need to be engaged and connected with whoever is delivering the treatment, whether that be you, Matt, a therapist, Jamie, whoever it is, for me, that is, and that's what makes the session a lot lot better and a lot more beneficial for the the dog, and you get better results as a res a sort of a byproduct of the fact that they're part of the session as well.

SPEAKER_01: 18:03

They're opting in almost, aren't they? They're absolutely I'm part of it with you, and it's it's kind of teamwork. And if if they're not comfortable with it, actually, you're right, it the body isn't accepting of any of it anyway. So it's useful.

SPEAKER_00: 18:17

Yeah, because I think if we don't if we don't work with our dogs, I mean there's so much more now about cooperative care, and it's it's so great that that's transferring into sort of like grooming and veterinary care and everything like that, rather than you walk in and the dog's got to be pinned down to have a blood draw. I mean, for ages they've been doing it with animals in captivity. I'm not saying that it's right, but the fact that they have been, why aren't we doing it with our dogs and cats and you know, other animals when they've they can do it with a tiger? Because there's no way you could physically hold a tiger down and that would have been resorting to to drugging it in order to do maybe a simple blood draw, that they wouldn't want to do that. So I think it's great that we're doing that within the, you know, it's growing so much in the veterinary world. And I think it's really important that we as any therapist, whether we chiropractic, massage, physio, whatever you happen to be, hydrotherapist, that we are engaged with the animal that we're working with, you know. But at the same time, and we're a bit like it as human beings as well, having somebody who knows when they're comfortable, but knows when they've got a relationship that they can ask the animal to do a little bit more that might push them a little bit out of their comfort zone, but still they can cope with it. And that that does build with time as well, you know. And I think that's really important because if otherwise you don't progress if you don't have those little pushes, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 19:49

Um I remember taking Tokyo for multi-shock waves, and the first two shock waves, they the first time the ultrasound scans him, and it was his so I did it under anaesthetic or sedation, and then the second time they did the shockwave under sedation, and then I asked to watch the shockwave under sedation, and I said, please don't sedate him, he'll he'll handle that. Like, you don't need to put him under sedation to shockwave him, he'll be fine. Like, and and he was he was absolutely fine, shockwave lying down on a bed, he was very good. But I remember when they asked to take him away, and I just said no, I'll hold him and I'll sit with him. And and he he gave you the look of because it's you, I'm tolerating this, and we can work with this, and he'd still take food and he'd still take his squeezy tube, and you can tell he wasn't like happy about it, but he definitely wasn't uncomfortable, unhappy. He was so it's the same as us. Like, I'll I'll tolerate a blood draw, I don't like it. I'll tolerate sitting in a scanner, I don't like it. I'll tolerate having someone like do eye tests on my eye and puff things in it. I don't like it, I feel a bit anxious about it, but we tolerate it, don't we? Because we understand it now. With them, it's not that they understand it, but they understand us, and they understand that what you're asking them is within the level of their consent. And we also know that if he really the horse nib it yesterday when being treated by one of those PMF circles, she absolutely said no. And she said that was too much for her, and she couldn't handle the amount of the I think the threat, the the pulse going through it. So I think they just push it a bit too high for her, and she just said no, and I was like, Don't push it in the With putting cream on her leg, she said absolutely no, didn't want cream on her leg. You're dealing with warm blood, you're dealing with something a bit strong, you're dealing with something mere, and definitely something that is not going to be what she wasn't fancying working for food on that day when it was needed, that would need to be built up over time. So sometimes you have to pick your battle, don't you? How important is shockwave or how important is the cream on her leg? And for me, it wasn't hot, there were no flies, and actually it was clean. So let's not go too far and leave it alone, it's surface. So, like you don't want to damage the relationship. And I know we're going off topic of electrotherapy because I do think there's a really relevant point. Now, just to go back to that PMF, just so I understand it. So the impact is at the cellular cellular level, and we're repairing all of the cells at that base level, at that body level. That's where we that's what it was doing to my shoulder. Yeah. And how long does that last, Mel?

SPEAKER_00: 22:18

Well, that can vary as well. So that machine, you know, it depends, and it depends what you do with it afterwards as well. I mean, if you've gone out and you'd started doing bench presses and weights and letting, you know, a horse drag you around or something, then the effect is going to be less.

SPEAKER_01: 22:35

I did last week. I did exactly that, and it went right back to normal. And this week I've been there. You go. We hadn't talked about that. I've been really guarded on it, and I've been really like careful not to do things or not certain weights, and it feels so much better. Like it feels so much better. So for me, you're right, it is what you do afterwards, isn't it? If you treat it and then you just go out and run the marathon again, then it's not necessarily going to be any better.

SPEAKER_00: 22:58

Yeah, yeah. And it's just it's just then making sure that you just don't do nothing after you've had the treatment, but you actually work a way of strengthening that area so that if you then go and lift some weights, but you'd start with smaller weights and you would do it gradually and you gradually build up to that point rather than just go straight for it and cause it to be a problem again. And the same with the dogs, but obviously the dogs actually we have to read them to know that we have to, you know, be working together, you know, owner, therapist, everybody to get the complete picture. You know, you, me, Jamie, we're always sort of talking and collaborating with everything.

SPEAKER_01: 23:38

Constant. And and I think that's where it's really important when we think about all of this, and it's probably again slightly off topic, but really relevant, is working out who your team are. I was with one of my friends the other day, she's got her her daughter's really, really lovely little girl, and and she's definitely got some additional needs. And she was with her son there as well, and she said sometimes Lauren, I just struggle with like sometimes we need a team, like we need a team, and that is it, right? Whether you're in life, you need a team, and I definitely need a team, like with the horses and with Liza and with life, but also with my dogs, I need a team, whether that's my vet team or my physio team or my sports team or whatever. Like, and I know that having you in my team is really, really impactful for me. I know that having Matt in my my team is is really, really impactful for me. I know that having Tasha in my team is really impactful for me. There's like there's lots of different people that cross over that make that team. And this team that we're talking on now is obviously therapies, and like you'll talk electrotherapies, you'll talk physio, and you'll talk hydrotherapy, and you'll talk sports training plans and what we do with our dogs. I think all of those are key, aren't they? And and without having that team, I actually think we wouldn't probably want to explore too much further those therapies. We it is part of your professional advising you, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 24:47

Absolutely, yeah, definitely. But going back to sort of, you know, we've got laser bean light therapy, you've got pulse electromagnetic therapy, which works in a different way, you've got things like ultrasound as well. So you're looking at sound waves as well.

SPEAKER_01: 24:58

And some things work better on different things than others, though, like ultrasound, I know works really nicely for tendons and ligaments, because we did that with Eva's shoulder, but it doesn't work so well for things like muscle, then you're better with a different the other thing I found interestingly with the ultrasound was it was quite hard to use in lots of ways because you either needed a shave dog and gel on the dog or you needed them in water, and for some people that it's not that it's difficult, but it's just not necessarily as day-to-day. Like you have to think about when you do it in a different way.

SPEAKER_00: 25:31

Yeah, I mean, of all the therapies, ultrasound is a tricky one because the you've got to keep the head moving, you can't keep it still, otherwise, you can cause other problems. There's always got to be something between the head and the body. So a gel, you can use it on an area that isn't shaved, as long as it's not really hairy. You don't have to shave everywhere. Obviously, the less hair, the better, and the easier it works, but you need a medium to transfer those sound waves through to get into the body, and you need to know how long you're doing it for. You must keep it moving. A lot of the machines now actually stop. I think yours does as well, that stops if you don't keep it moving or if you've not got the right contact. It is a really tricky one to use, but again, it has its place and it has its time. But I would say, probably for most people, it's not really one that would be easy to translate to home use.

SPEAKER_01: 26:20

What about laser? So, laser, um, like I said, I use really successfully with my ankle, I've used it with my neck, you've used it with your neck. I use it on um Skittle right now in a couple of areas. I use it on Brave a lot. So Brave has a lot of laser and in lots of different spots actually. Like, really, Brave has quite a few sort of just very tight spots. And so we use we use it on Brave. What about that and hair? Like, how does that work? Because are you still trying to get rid of the hair, or is it okay with hair? Like, how does that work?

SPEAKER_00: 26:51

It's okay with hair, but obviously, if you've got a really hairy dog and you put the laser on top of all the hair, it's got to get through the hair to get to the skin to then get through and into the areas you want to, you know, treat. So you definitely the closer you can get to the skin with it, the better. So, like you said with Brave, yes, we use it on her in multiple areas, but use it in multiple areas for different things, so you use it on her back where she's had that lesion to relieve the discomfort and increase the flow of neurological information going through, and you'll lose it in areas where she's overcompensating because of that, so a lot around her neck and around her scapula, where she's used over using those structures as a result of the fact of what she had happened to her. So it's using yeah, in different areas but different ways for different reasons.

SPEAKER_01: 27:38

And yeah, it's so I think that's such a brilliant therapy because she I would say she enjoys it, she really likes it, and yeah, it also is quite quick, it doesn't take a long time, and it also is it's quite mild. Like you could sit and do it whilst enjoying, I don't know, a cup of tea in the evening, like you can sit down and just chill a bit, like you can chill with her and and and do something like that, or you could sit and have a conversation with your physio whilst they're lasering, like it's quite comfortable therapy, isn't it? It's not like shockwave, where that is quite an uncomfortable noise, let alone potentially a friend of mine did have that on their foot and said it was very sore. So I haven't actually experienced that myself, but she did say it was on her foot when she had it on her foot.

SPEAKER_00: 28:21

Yeah, yeah. And I've heard that from other humans who have had it as well.

SPEAKER_01: 28:26

So then he bruised when they did it, he did bruise. So bruising, yeah. So you had bruising on the skin when they did it.

SPEAKER_00: 28:35

And again, that's something else you have to weigh up, the sort of the side effect in you in a way of having it versus the benefit of what the therapy itself is going to produce. You know, if you've got a dog that's chronically going on and off lame, on and off lame, and therefore whatever the diagnosis is stuck in this inflammatory cycle, and you need to break that cycle, then maybe the side effects of the shockwave are worth doing for the benefits of restarting that inflammatory phase in the healing cycle.

SPEAKER_01: 29:08

Yeah, massive, massive. So if shockwave is starting that inflammatory sort of like cycle again, what is biomag and laser doing? Is that at the next stages?

SPEAKER_00: 29:20

Yeah, it doesn't affect so laser works by increasing blood flow and gives pain relief to those areas. If you're in the inflammatory phase, it's it can help stimulate that and move through it. And and it like I say, we used to try and get out of the inflammatory phase as soon as we can, but I think we need to we in the sort of background science of of physio, we need to embrace that, and which is why I think a lot of vets are now also let's don't just jump straight to non-steroid anti-inflammatory drugs, let's let's and you looking at sort of 72 hours for that inflammatory phase. If after 72 hours they're not moving out of that inflammatory phase, then that's when we need to maybe intervene and move it from that inflammatory phase into the next phase of healing, because otherwise we're not going to progress in the in the healing process, whether that's as a result of surgery or whether that's a result of an injury or something else that maybe hasn't been diagnosed for a while and it's therefore become quite chronic and just stuck and needs a restart.

SPEAKER_01: 30:29

You did touch on Mel that they in the wrong hands are dangerous or or poorly used, they can be dangerous. What are some of the things that we should be careful of with electrotherapies? And I think this is just I don't ever want to speak badly of anyone. I think that's a really I don't think we should do that generally, but I do think there are some times that you'd say, I've had to ask a couple of therapists to be a little bit more gentle. I've had to ask a couple of therapists to not sort of raise their voice at dogs, which I know you maybe think that you shouldn't, but uh that I have that this is real experience. This is not hearsay, this is I have had this conversation myself. I've had to ask people how to handle naughty but nice dogs a bit more carefully, so not to try and speak to their faces and and like cuddle them. I've had to ask people to check the heat of their equipment, like the the lasers at category four. And so for me, I have had those conversations. So, what are the things maybe just be careful of around biomag and um around um laser and and things like that?

SPEAKER_00: 31:33

Well, some of the particular ones are like if they've got an infection, you want to be really careful because you can actually then spread that infection around the body, which is something you don't want to do. Cancers, things like pregnancy as well. So if I have anyone come in my clinic, I have um a big pad, big pad that goes into the biomag that sits on the floor and sits on top of the mat that the dog sits on. Because I've had a couple of dogs in where they don't want a pad put on them, but they'll happily lay on a mat on their towel, and I can deliver some treatment with them laying on it. And then as they become more comfortable with it and more used to me, I then might like be able to bring one pad in and into an area I want. So, although like them lying on this mat isn't in my ideal, it's actually a start, and it's a bit like we've just talked about it's building that trust and that relationship because my relationship with the dogs that come in my clinic is very different to my relationship with my pet dogs. And that I think is really important. So if I've had an owner wants to sit on the floor with their dog, won this mat, I do have to say that's fine by me. But if you're pregnant, I suggest that you don't because actually there's no research into this therapy and the effect it could have on pregnancy. And I've had actually had one person when I told said that to them jump straight up and sat on the chair, and she looked at me and I went, Oh, okay. And she went, We haven't even told anybody yet.

SPEAKER_01: 32:57

Congratulations, congratulations would be the word.

SPEAKER_00: 33:01

So it's you know, it's really important to be aware of those things, really. And for each electrotherapy, there are a range of, like say, contraindications, so things you should not use on, and there are precautions, so there are things that you need to take extra care with, and that would be something where I would probably have a discussion with the owner and the vet and say, look, in this case, this isn't something we would normally do. So, say for example, I don't know, that we've got a dog that's very near its end of life, it has a diagnosed cancer, for example. But by delivering some electrotherapy, I might make it feel more comfortable. Is the vet going to be happy with that? Is the owner going to be happy with that, knowing that it possibly could accelerate the rate at which that cancer grows? But if the dog's already uncomfortable and the owner and the vet are happy, then I could do that. So, that do you know what I mean? That that's the time when you balance it out.

SPEAKER_01: 33:55

Quality of life question at that point, isn't there? Like quality versus quantity, actually, in your last stages, do you want to be comfortable or do you want to live longer? Like, you know what? You probably want to be comfortable. But that is, like you said, it's a conversation to have. Now, one thing I was gonna ask Mel is what about the the type of of laser? I know we were looking into mine. Is it cold? Is it hot? Like, what's that about? And is it a laser that, like, because you've got red light, for example, that I'm allowed to look into, and then you've got laser that you're not allowed to look into. Like, what's that about?

SPEAKER_00: 34:26

Yeah, so with true lasers, you need to be very careful with eyes because they can damage your eyes. So a lot of the time you'll get like glasses to wear and things like that. If I can, and it depends again on the dog, and it depends on the situation. I will try and do laser like under a towel, or like I will use something to shield it rather than necessarily. I'm not one for putting glasses on dogs. For me, I don't think that's something unless a dog wears like a glass it, you know, like you see them wear it for an eye condition. If a dog is already accustomed to wearing those, then that wouldn't be a problem. But for me, that's putting in something quite that can be quite negative into a situation that already can be a little bit stressful for the dog anyway. So I tend to try and do my laser on something. If I need to, I wear them. I do have one dog on my caseload who I'm very, very careful with, and in that situation, the owner wears a pair of glasses, I wear a pair of glasses because I cannot guarantee that I'm going to be able to keep it in the place I want to keep it for that particular dog. Um, but that's only one dog, and so again, it's it's risk-assessing everything really, and what is the risks for this? But things like so class three and class four lasers, so class three and class four, they're really in what they deliver, they don't deliver any different, but what they do is they deliver at a different speed. So class four will deliver the treatment a lot quicker than a class three. You might need to also move, be more careful with the class four because it may well generate more heat because of the speed at which it works. So because it works so much quicker, it could generate heat deep in tissue, but obviously you won't see. And there have been cases where actually there's been damage caused to an animal due to somebody using a laser who doesn't understand how they should be using it. So that's why I said right at the beginning, it's really important that you use it under the guidance of somebody and work it with someone. It's not that I think we should avoid them completely because they are there and they are available. But if we use it correctly and safely, and you know, people are willing to work within that, then there are ways around, you know, to do that.

SPEAKER_01: 36:40

I think that for me is the the thing I'd love for owners to know that it do it carefully safely and with the use um and the the help of a professional. I've got a spinal case, so Braid has a spinal case, I've had a tendon case, that was a nightmare, and I've also got sports dogs. All of those things I feel are in need of some level of fairly regular support. And then, in addition to that, um, I've also got Blink, who's rising 12. She looks like there could be arthritis sort of type movements there at times, and that crepitice in the knee, I know, is there. I know that the laser can be something that's quite nice that you can use very frequently. And so I think that it's good for people to know that those options are out there without immediately jumping to loads of meds or without immediately jumping to this not dog needs a replacement or a whatever else. Actually, Blink's not ever going to have any knee surgery, but we will keep her comfortable with the use of potentially some biomag, potentially some laser, potentially some hydrotherapies, which maybe Mel, you'll talk to us on next time. Um we've got the capacity there to do that, right?

SPEAKER_00: 37:46

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And a lot of the time it is using those therapies and layering them in. So, you know, you'll start with what because you don't want to suddenly put everything in in one go because, like we've talked about, then you don't quite know which one is actually having the benefit effect. Or is it that you do one, but then when you add the other one in, we add this sort of ladder effect that by building all these things in, we create an overall effect. So it's really important to stage it, and it's encompassing that with things like household changes, lifestyle changes, exercise prescription, you know, so you create a sort of a holistic approach to it. And if you've done all those things and that's still some issue, then you might discuss with the vet whether some medication on top of what you're already doing might actually help sort of just balance everything out. But some cases, like I've had, where we've been doing all those things and the dog has become quite uncomfortable. So I've asked them to go back to the vet and review the pain medication. The vet's put them on some pain medication for maybe a couple of weeks, then we've taken them off and they've been absolutely fine to continue on for what we're doing. So it was almost like they just needed that little bit of extra support at that time, but then we can come back off it again, continue with what we're doing. I might like up my laser dosage, so I might increase the number of jewels that I'm doing, which I have actually with a couple of the dogs that I've got. They've come off the pain medication and now they're comfortable. So we're like, right, this is the new format for what we're doing. And that's why it's I think it's so important that we don't be prescriptive about anything, but we constantly assess and we talk and we reassess and we collaborate and we do all those things with all the things that we have available to us.

SPEAKER_01: 39:25

Yeah, no, it sounds absolutely it is it's just like any other workup, you do you do a work up, don't you? Like there's a work when you think medically, and I can I can only think of my dad when he's probably, but there's a real workup, and there's a team, and there's people that look at the pagan medicine, there's people that look at one thing and then another and then another. So it's it's a work of across. Now, my last question for you on electrotherapies, because I'm very interested in them. How about the order of when you use them? So, how about the like how how we do things? So, for example, we might swim our dogs, we might train our dogs, we might you know exercising our dogs, we might take our dogs and do the marathon, we might be doing agility. Like, how do the electrotherapies work? When should we use them? How should we use them? Or are there any any sort of do's and don'ts? Or is it just wherever you feel it fits in your day? Like, how how does that work in terms of what's best for the dog?

SPEAKER_00: 40:14

So things like like we like we talked about your shoulder, and you're having your electrotherapy, and then you did something that it was too much afterwards. I think that it's really important that we, when we deliver whatever electrotherapy we're doing, that we allow for a recovery period. Because the influence of that electrotherapy, just like your shoulder, made you feel so much better. You was like, Yeah, I can go and do this. And then that sort of you ended up feeling uncomfortable again. So we do need to be careful with things like so. For me, electrotherapies are something I would do at the end of the day. I might do in a rehab session, but I then wouldn't go and exercise the dog in terms of like go for a long walk or do some agility. A lot of my clients asked them to go home and just allow the dog to relax and absorb what's been done. And you know, we've talked about in terms of things like I wouldn't laser a dog or buy a MAGA dog and then go and work them in agility because what we've done, exactly like you just said yourself, we've made them feel good, we've then asked them to perform and we've probably pushed them beyond where their body is capable of going. But because they feel good, they can do it, and then we might find that they're actually not as good afterwards, and that's because of. The sequence of which we've done things. So for me, it's an end of day, or if it's done at the beginning of the day, then my day is quiet and not a lot else will happen. I wouldn't go and like do electrotherapies and then possibly go for a like a fun swim or something. There are certain sort of times with some dogs that I might do my electrotherapy first before I put them in the treadmill if I've got like a hip dysplasia dog and I want to encourage or like a neurological dog and I want to encourage more flow down the spine so that the movement I get then is better. But again, I'm not pushing uh beyond what the I know the dog's able to do, but I'm encouraging a good movement pattern, which is very different to work. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01: 42:10

Yeah, and I think the other thing with work is writing so many notes. I'm like, write a note. I think the other thing with work is the dog will push itself beyond anyway because of the type of dogs we're working or the working sporting types. So because they'll push themselves beyond what's probably comfortable anyway, it actually could potentially be quite dangerous in that scenario because they are often going to extremes without thinking. You know what it's like, you're really excited, you've got like germ in your body, and then suddenly, boom, it it hurts, but it doesn't really hurt until you're finished, and you've already done all the damage by them. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 42:42

Yeah, and it'll probably be the next day as well, it'll be even more uncomfortable as well. And then then you'll be thinking, Well, what on earth happened here? Because they seem fine, they work fine, nothing happened during that session, but it will be that sort of what we've just talked about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 42:59

I'm like, I've got range in this shoulder. How often can I do it, or should I do it again, or if it's fine, you just leave it alone? Like, what's the thing? I know you're not allowed to advise for people, but but just in case you're advising for a dog that was very similar to me.

SPEAKER_00: 43:19

I don't know. I mean, I've worked out my own pattern for my my neck of what how often I need to do it. And if I'm feeling sore, then I'll do it every day. But I do it before I go to bed, so I'll do it before I go to bed. And a lot of my again, my work probably doesn't help because I spend a lot of my day on the floor, yeah, exactly like that, which is really, really bad for my neck. Like the Grinch, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 43:41

Like um that what's that one called? Rolled doll, like BFG. You've only got BFG pressure.

SPEAKER_00: 43:50

And a lot of time I'm on the floor, the owner's sitting on a chair, so I must spend a lot of time looking up because I'm on the floor, yeah, which is just rubbish for my neck. So in order to keep me functioning, but if I'm having if I've had a really busy week, I'm it's this week has been crazy. I've had six dogs in yesterday, seven dogs in today. I will probably be sore later, and I'll probably be sore tomorrow. So but I'm trying I'm also tries to be I try to be mindful in my sessions that I try not to do too much of this bad posture for my neck as much as possible. And if I have to apologize for my, I'm really sorry, I'm not not looking at you for any reason, it's just I have to try and keep my chin down where I can't spend my whole time with my neck in a sort of hyperextension because it's really not good.

SPEAKER_01: 44:32

Oh you're gonna be like, right, clients, sit on the target there. So, Mel, I think I think this has been really, really useful. I think that our probably passing and and leaving everybody. And Mel, the noise you hear in the background is Mel's rewarding her dog. So uh sorry, she's rewarding her dog, so she's doing great stuff, especially in what the podcast is and does. And so, probably the things to leave it with work with a professional, find a professional you like, you trust, you enjoy, and you enjoy um working with, and your dog enjoys, be comfortable. Um, some therapists will come to your house, some therapists you go to visit, but either way, be comfortable. Like for me, if I was going into a therapy center where other dogs were wandering around, that wouldn't suit me either or my dogs. Um, it needs to be fairly well managed. Equally, if it's possible for your therapist to come to you and it suits, then again, whatever suits you and your dog best. And I suppose those would be some of my things is if you're not happy with the first therapist, there there are lots of them, and there are lots of people you can go out there and find. Those people that have asked me, is has Mel got any space? Mel is full. We can think of a few spaces, but Mel is really really full of unfortunately. Yes. That's a sign of a great therapist, though, right? Like, yeah, that's a sign of a great therapist that they they should have some it should be difficult to get hold of them. Mel, any final passing points from you or final sum-up points or anything else you'd want to add to that that we may have missed?

SPEAKER_00: 45:51

Oh, I think I think you know, we've covered quite a lot, but I think it is it is really and don't be afraid, like you've sort of said so many times, don't be afraid to sort of say actually I'm not happy with that. You know, it's so hard when we go into a professional's space, whether that be a vet, a you know, a physio, a chiropractor, you know, that is their sort of area, and it does take a lot to say, well, actually, I'm not happy with that, you know. I'm not happy with how you're doing that, please don't do that, or can we do this another way? But don't be afraid to, because otherwise, you know, you could the consequences could be not what you want them to be, or the the treatment's not gonna be what you want it to be, your dog's not gonna progress in the way we want it to be. So, yeah, that that's been my only thing apart from what you've said.

SPEAKER_01: 46:38

So no, really, really helpful. Mel, next time we're going to talk water therapies if you're happy. Okay. And because I've already planned it, is what you should be doing with the first sort of 12 months of your dog's life. So actually, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Because I know for me, you've really changed my approach to even how I exercise, how I train, how my week looks. I'm starting to find a rhythm after the initial shock of you telling me what I should do. I am starting to find a rhythm, and so yeah, it's it's useful, I think, to tell everybody about that. And there will be initial shock, and then we will calm down. Thank you for joining us, Mel. I hope you're welcome. Um you get to come and do all of those because I think there's a lot to learn here, and really appreciative of all of your time.

SPEAKER_00: 47:23

You're welcome. Let's do it whenever we can.

SPEAKER_01: 47:25

Let's do it. So that was this episode of Sex and Squirrel podcast. Please join us for another episode, real soon, on one of those therapies.