SPEAKER_01: 0:00

So just talk through what you mean by a life sentence and and what made you because because you suggested this topic and I thought brilliant, like absolutely brilliant for you guys to listen to.

SPEAKER_00: 0:09

So I my experience is that lots of people with reactive or dogs that are anxious or struggling within the environment, with people, with other dogs, whatever it is, feel that this is never going to be any different. I'm, you know, this is my punishment for making some mistakes in this dog's early life or whatever.

SPEAKER_01: 0:42

Welcome to the Absolute Dogs Next in a Squirrel podcast. I'm Lauren Langman. I'm one of the world's leading dog trainers, and it's my mission to help owners become their dog's top priority. In each episode, you'll discover how to gain trust and communicate with your dog like never before, creating unbreakable bonds that make you the most exciting part of their world. Hello. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Linda, we're talking life sentences. That's serious. I've had two of those. You've had two. And what crime did you commit on mine? So we're talking life sentences. And when Linda and I were originally discussing whether um to do this or not, actually, when you said life sentence, I said, you know what? We should talk this through because people, it really does feel like that, doesn't it? At times, it really feels like you've got a life sentence and and you don't even know why you've got it and why you've had it. And you can feel a little bit, I suppose, upset about that whole scenario. Like, why me rather than try me? More like, actually, I don't I don't want to be in this. I don't even know what I did to deserve this.

SPEAKER_00: 1:46

That's that's it. So it that's it. It's what did I do to deserve it? Uh, what mistakes did I make to cause this to happen? All of those sort of self-blaming solutions.

SPEAKER_01: 1:57

And we're talking obviously a difficult dog. So you've got a difficult dog. Now, I don't know if you want to talk about one of your life sentences. I think we should talk ping. So I think we should talk ping because I know that ping is definitely been, has definitely been a challenge for you. And even as a adult older dog, it's still a challenge. There are times when you go, okay, I need to manage this differently, or I need to question my own sanity here. What am I trying to achieve by going on this walk or by doing this? So just talk through what you mean by a life sentence and and what made you because because you suggested this topic, and I thought, brilliant, like absolutely brilliant for you guys to listen to.

SPEAKER_00: 2:29

So I my experience is that lots of people with reactive or dogs that are anxious or could struggle in an in within the environment, with people, with other dogs, whatever it is, feel that this is never going to be any different. I'm, you know, this is my punishment for making some mistakes in this dog's early life or whatever. With ping, I have done let me just back up a bit. Often when you watch training information, you are, I think people believe that if they just do the right thing, their dog will be fixed, and that then they'll have the dog that is always confident in any environment and is able to deal with other dogs walking past them or whatever it is that their struggle is. And sometimes that's not the case. Sometimes we have to accept that they are what they are. We have got them to a point in their lives where they are happy and safe and able to function as well as possible as a dog, but it does mean that they're not going to be the dog we take to the cafe and lies under the table and the terrier walks past and they take no notice.

SPEAKER_01: 3:45

That's not going to be our And I think what you're saying there is we need to sometimes adjust our expectations and possibly understand how to manage things correctly. Now, I only recently popped a post on my page just really to be a little bit controversial and say, what do you think of a flexi? Because I know that there's, for example, a lot of people that really dislike them, but for me, it's a management tool in the right scenario, in the right space with the right trainer. So lots of different expectations there from me and who we'll be using it with. It can have a place. It has a place. And I suppose what we're saying is dogs like these, a level of management, understanding, and adjusting our expectation can help us to not maybe have a life sentence.

SPEAKER_00: 4:25

Yeah, I suppose not to feel like a life sentence. So because we're con we're constantly taking some sort of responsibility that is unrealistic for making this dog into somebody they're not. Now, my I have a history of being a therapist and doing couples therapy, and you see the same thing between people. Do you really? The same thing. Absolutely interesting. You see people, partners wanting to change their partner to make their partner what they want them to be, and when that doesn't happen, somehow feeling like they failed in the such an interesting one.

SPEAKER_01: 4:59

I mean, we're we're obviously talking dog training, but real quick, like I I know you've got one, and I've definitely got one. And you were just talking about your partner, and he's maybe not as organized as you are, and you could go into that in a minute. And mine would be that Matt's not as enthusiastic in the morning as I am, and I'm very enthusiastic from like 6 a.m. bang. I'm I'm the same all the time. I really am very enthusiastic. And so for me, I always wanted to change that. And now I've learned to just get up and get on with what I want to do and let him just take his time because that's him and that's me, and I shouldn't be trying to force him to be enthusiastic in the morning. And that's quite something that he's not exactly that, like it's not him. So leave him to sleep. If he needs a lion, let him have his lion and actually carry on my day because sometimes when I was busy waiting for his day, my expectation, his expectation was so misaligned that actually that causes confrontation and tension and tension in a space. And for you, it would be your partner's maybe not as tidy. That's right.

SPEAKER_00: 5:49

Yeah. So so I have a way of managing things like I do with the dog. I wear managing things that makes it okay for me and okay for him to be the person that he is.

SPEAKER_01: 6:00

And it's interesting, you thought you were here for a dog training podcast, but here we are doing couples therapy. So, in addition to couples therapy, let's talk the life sentence. And I'm I'm gonna give Poppy as the example. For me, 15 years was a lot, 16 years was a lot, 17 years, it was getting better and better. Like actually, the the older she got almost the more ready for her I got. And I feel like I was under ready for a dog like that. I was undereducated for a dog like that. I didn't have the management strategies, I didn't really have the tools in my toolkit, I didn't really know what I was taking on. But those dogs teach us so many different lessons. And at the same time, the life sentence can still feel heavy. Why can I not compete like everyone else? Why can I not maybe win at this level? Why can I maybe not have her in certain environments? Why do I necessarily why why don't I necessarily enter this competition? Or why can I not walk her off lead with other dogs? Or why does she always have to be on a lead? And because some of these dogs might have to go through scenarios like that. What would be some of your considerations having a dog like Ping or a life sentence like the one that you initially thought, God, I've had a life sentence of this?

SPEAKER_00: 7:06

But then it feels like a life sentence. Well, well, I had a little transition into that because very before I was a well-educated dog owner, I had a reactive dog who would take a lump out of another dog. And I used to spend my life yelling across the fields going, can you put your dog on a lead, please? I mean, people are bet better now, but that and then she died. She was very loved, but she died. It was such a relief to walk the rest of the dogs. That's huge.

SPEAKER_01: 7:35

And not have to I think let's pause on that. It's such a relief when you don't have that responsibility. And I think this is really important to acknowledge that great dog trainers like Linda, myself, I know with Poppy, when I stopped taking her to competitions with me because she was not competing anymore and she could stay home with mum or whoever was staying at at home. It was a relief not to take her. So you'd arrive in the van and you'd say to the competition people in the morning, they'd tell you which direction you're going, and it'd be straight away at the van. And as much as you train it and as much as you manage it, it was a relief not to have it. Yes, it was a relief, and I think that's a really important acknowledgement.

SPEAKER_00: 8:12

It was such a relief to be able to just walk a group of dogs and not have to be watching where if there's anybody about or where I was or where I went. Massive. It was such a relief. And then I got pinged. And you were like, How on earth? Second time round. I'm supposed to be an educated dog trainer now. Uh and it's just he is an anxious dog. I I and as much as I've done loads of work with him and he's been DMT'd within an inch of his life.

SPEAKER_01: 8:43

DMT, for those of you listening that don't know what DMT is, it's distraction. Mark Treat is one of our games from Games Club. If you haven't already seen Games Club, go and get involved in Games Club. Lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely space for all people who want to learn more about dog training. So head over to the Absolute Dog Store. And equally, if you've got a dog like Ping or you've got any of these naughty but nice dogs, 10 days to stop reactivity, 10 days to stop barking, all of the 10 days courses, really nice courses for you to head into or sex in a squirrel. But carry on.

SPEAKER_00: 9:10

So they all improve the situation. He got to level four of DMT where he would actually tell me there was somebody around the corner and come back expecting his bit of chicken or whatever. That's that's lovely. So we had we had had a huge amount of improvement.

SPEAKER_01: 9:26

So you've got skills and you've got management techniques and you've got understanding and you've got learning.

SPEAKER_00: 9:32

However, however, put him in a situation where there is a dog that is just too close for his comfort, or he feels that he's got to be responsible for himself. That's the other one, which is ties into the incident we've just recently had. He felt that I wasn't or I hadn't got his back. Yeah, because I got distracted. And when he felt I hadn't got his back, he went to sort out himself. He went to sort the problem out himself. Or if the problem, like you know, the dog comes into his space too much, then he'll feel he has to do something about it himself. Yeah. And that's his anxiety. But you know, with all the work I did with him, he got to championship class in obedience. Massive. So he could go to a dog show, he could sometimes have a reaction to other the other dogs, but he would be magic-handed all the way around. So transitions everywhere. So a transition management from ring to ring or from the car park to the rings. As soon as he was in the ring, he knew he was safe, completely safe in the rings because fortunately he never had a dog come in on him in the ring. So he went in the ring, he could work beautifully in the ring and knew that he'd get his reward when he went out. And so he we we got to that. I I wasn't I wasn't restricted in what I could do with him as a sports dog, but domestically I have to constantly because be aware.

SPEAKER_01: 11:48

And then also in life, multi-dogs and multi-dog management, has that been something you have to consider and ongoing you have to consider?

SPEAKER_00: 11:56

Because I've brought other dogs into the house, and Ping can get stalky, he's a collie. Yeah. And some other dogs, like I had a mixed poodle, border collie poodle mix. And if Ping stalked him, the poodle would attack Ping. Ping would then fight back, and we would have fights in the house. So we had to manage that using crates and everything else. And now that poodle cross died, but then my latest border collie, who you know very well. I love Ulla.

SPEAKER_01: 12:30

Ulla is like one of my, she's a dream border collie for me. However, the phenomenal learned for him, too much. And she's too strong-eyed, she's too busy trying to work movement. And so for him, actually, it's not maybe the best match. And at the same time, we are what we are, and we get what we get to a degree. Linda's done a great job with her. At the same time, she's probably got more eye than Linda was expecting, I would guess. And and so you have a level of managing that because she eyes him and then he eyes her, and they don't really know the scenario.

SPEAKER_00: 13:00

And then they get into a kaphuffle, and she's never learned by him, you know, pinning her down and telling her off. Yeah. So my management there is I've trained him to get jump up so we have to do it. Defuse it. They're around allowed on the furniture. So it's I just say this pin, get up, and he jumps up, and that disengages them.

SPEAKER_02: 13:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:20

So so that way we keep him.

SPEAKER_01: 13:23

I think the important thing to listen to here, and I think this is really, really something that I think a lot of people don't really understand or don't really in the dog training world, it's hidden. I think I would say these are real life scenarios, and these things happen.

SPEAKER_00: 13:37

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 13:37

And so a lot of people would say, This is perfect, life is perfect, nothing goes wrong, there's never a squabble, there's never a fight, there's never a cuff-up or if you own multi-dogs, or if you have a dog like one of our life sentences, we're gonna say but nice dogs typically can can feel like a life sentence. And we're only saying this, we're giving you an analogy so that you guys can relate and can feel part of this community because the community is very, very special for looking after dogs like this. You're training dogs like this this week here, who potentially have some struggles but are in a very safe, safe place.

SPEAKER_00: 14:08

So we keep them all together in a safe place. It's all managed so that they are put in into a position where they feel they've got to do something about it themselves.

SPEAKER_01: 14:16

They're training in a 70-meter arena, there's more than enough space, you've got an acre and a half, two-acre field in front of you, it's completely safe. There are no sort of every every I is dotted and every T is crossed. And so I suppose the important thing to say is, and I think this is brilliant that Linda's sharing it, whatever level trainer you are, if your trainer says they've never had a kerfuffle or they've never had a squabble or they've never had a problem or they've never experienced a dog that's like this, then they're probably, in my opinion, not a trainer. Because I think that these are real life scenarios. It does happen. And as good as you are at dog training, and as good as you are at managing, and as good as you are at seeing all the things that you need to see in transitions and mechanics and all of the things, we do sometimes have moments that are kerfuffle or high tension, or like I'll see it with classics sometimes. She'll prickle past someone, and I'm like, oi, get out of it. Because if you let her go too far, there's an escalation moment that you we need her to disengage. And so I think there's that the ideal scenario is they never ever find themselves in any of these situations. The reality is they do, they do, yes. It's the same as me. The ideal situation is I don't find myself in front of Rhubarb Crumble last night, right? The reality is I do, and then I struggle to say no. So I need strategies because I really like the crumble. Um it's that same thing, isn't it? We we the ideal scenario is we don't put those things in front of our naughty but nice dogs. But reality is they're dogs and we live in a real world.

SPEAKER_00: 15:39

And and the reality is we are never going to completely transform our naughty but nice dogs into a completely balanced a completely different character. They're not going to be something completely different.

SPEAKER_01: 15:50

You're never making a dog like Ullah, Ulla's high-drive, um, sensitive, enthusiastic, yet potentially reactive border collie. You're never turning her into a peg dog Labrador that goes on a shoot and sits all day and just watches until his potentially elderly gentleman owner sends him off to do a job. It's a completely different animal. You're working with a completely different animal. I think it's really important you acknowledge who is a dog in front of you and are you working with them. So let's think life sentences. How have you overcome the feeling of a life sentence with dogs like Ping and your late dog? Like, how have you overcome that feeling? What strategies can you recommend for people?

SPEAKER_00: 16:28

Always when I'm challenged, so and I've had this big challenge recently where there was a kerfuffle and things got a bit messy with ping. I always stand back and go, what lesson do I need to learn from this? So, what do I need to do to make these situations better? I am never going to make ping a different dog.

SPEAKER_02: 16:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 16:52

But what I what I can do is make sure he's safe when I take him out for a walk, or make sure that I'm aware at home. Like he likes to watch out the windows for the neighbour's cats. And that obviously escalates his arousal, then his poor behaviour when he goes on a walk. Yes, yeah. He doesn't like people moving their wheelie bins about and he'll charge out the back door to try and sort it out. Make him say I need to keep those things. So it's like, do I keep his bucket as empty as possible? Yeah. Be aware of all those things in his in his domestic world, and then make sure that my management of him when he's out on a walk is as is as the best it can be. And then he will have a good time. And I will be, I always see my dog walks as that they're the dog's walks. Yeah. They're not me hiking with a dog. Yeah, it's such a different scenario, isn't it? It's a whole different thing. And for him, it's really important. He gets out and about and has a sniffy walk and has a bit of enrichment out there.

SPEAKER_01: 17:55

And it's interesting, I've got multi-dogs, and some of my dogs I can choose to just have a stress-free walk. Yeah. And I can go, okay, blink, brave, class, let's go out for a stress-free walk. They won't notice a thing, they won't do a thing, they don't bark, they don't react, they don't have anything in them. And then I might pick myself a challenge walk and I might take Skittle along on that walk, and she'll be thinking about hunting, and she'll be thinking about finding deer, and she'll be thinking about anything, water, and she'll be thinking about how fast she can get there. And then I might pick taking Katie, who is potentially aware of everything and vigilant. She's more of a ping. And so with her, I've got to think who I might match them with. So if you've got multi-dogs, also know there's no rules as to whether you take them, whether you don't take them, whether you match them differently, pair them differently. You don't have to make your life sentence. Like you actually can go, you know what? I just want a nice walk and I've got a full bucket, so I'm probably not going to take them. And I think people don't know that that sometimes you can go, actually, it is my walk and I'll just leave the dogs for a minute, or I'll maybe just take anybody.

SPEAKER_00: 18:48

Yeah, I'm going on a walk and I'll take one with me. So if I go on a walk with a friend, I only take centimeters. Yeah, she'll she'll go. She'll be easy going. She's fine, she'll just do her own thing. Yeah. And I can chat to my friend, and I haven't got to be mad at all. Responsibility. I haven't got that responsibility.

SPEAKER_01: 19:03

Yeah, and I think it's I think it's very important that when we are out, we consider actually if we have got this dog who potentially feels a bit life sentence, what are the things we can do to mitigate that? So for me, I'll give you five things that for me would help, and then Linda could give you a few, or maybe we'll tips tennis it. So for me, one of mine is I've always taken a my my dog's are always hungry when they walk, so that I've always got a lot of scatter food in my pocket. I wear trousers that always have a pocket in the side. Linda and I like these trousers, but they've always got a pocket inside. I'll put my hand in the pocket and I'll always scatter feed. If you haven't ditched the bowl yet, please go and listen to some of our uh Ditch the Bowl podcasts or our games club sort of teaching or any of our uh sexiness grill or 10-day courses because they all talk through Ditch the Bowl. But for me, because I'm taking them out fairly hungry, it's a bit like flying a bird of prey. You wouldn't take a bird of prey out to fly if they were overweight. If they're overweight, so they already had their fill, is what I'm saying. You've got not much to work with. Like that there's not a lot there to work with. Whereas if you take the dogs out there, so so they'll go out before they've been fed, I'll then scatter some food on the on the walk, and I'll do a lot of recalls and scatters. So yesterday we saw a bicycle, day before we saw a very young border collie who was quite adolescent and lunging on lead, not in a bad way, just in a very, very uh one of the students and very, very friendly dog, but over-friendly for them. But they can walk past without even a look because they're busy being scattered. That's right. Yeah. So you've got management strategy. So for me, my number one was have a hungry dog, ditch the bowl, and make sure you've got a strategy if you do see something, whether that's on lead or off-lead. My dogs are appropriate off-lead, all of them actually. Uh, however, in the past, Poppy would have been on lead because you learned way too many bad habits before I got hold of them. And I did need to get hold of them. Go on, what would one of your things?

SPEAKER_00: 20:43

So I have scatter on cue. Nice. So as soon as I say scatter, they're all back because they know that there's gonna be a deal on the floor.

SPEAKER_01: 20:52

Ping always goes back on a lead. Okay, so that's your second one, guys. Back on a lead. So get your dog back on a lead and practice that when you don't need it, not just when you do. So this morning I was out riding, I practice halting and walking, halting and walking, halting and walking. Because this horse doesn't like to stop. Well, actually, if we see traffic, she needs to stop. And if we see a road, she needs to stop. And so I'm practicing in a place that's non, it's not important, it's just on a bridal path. So it's woodland. However, it's really important she learns her safety to do it in a place that's safe before we put her on a road. Um, so let's not put her on a road and practice that skill. Same as on a recall, you're not going to put him in front of 10 dogs and then practice it if he doesn't know it without drugs. And and he now he he wears a head collar. Yeah. So number three is Linda's implemented a head collar. For some people, head collars can be really controversial for me. I think again, taught really well. I like a head collar, Skitter wears a head collar when she's been in strong hunt mode. And actually, I put it back on just to regain a little bit of where she is because it can definitely redirect the eye for her when she's gone into real nose and sensory space that you can't get hold of her. Um, and so yeah, the head collar and and he he wears that, he's been accustomed to it, he's been adjusted to it, he understands it, yeah, you've taught it, and that allows you to feel as you have your and your control of him. He's strong, right?

SPEAKER_00: 22:50

He is, and he's he's 22 kilograms, which is fairly sizable for a colleague.

SPEAKER_01: 22:55

Yeah, and you're fairly, I'd say slight. I'm petite. You are saying I'm working towards this petite. Okay, so a fourth one, um, for me, again, having living with the life sentence is actually lose other people's rules. So other people's rules aren't your rules. So for me, when for example, my late dad would have said, No, let them all come out, I'm like, no, they're not all coming out, dad, because it'll be a fight. Like, let's not do that. Or for example, one of our dogs doesn't particularly like Eliza, I actually don't put them in the space together. So they Don't suit each other, and it's not they're just adventures, just very barky around. She she she came to us as an adult dog, she didn't particularly like children, and so I just manage that space, and we've never had an instant, we've never had any issues. However, I wouldn't make it like try to make them be friends all the time. So lose other people's rules, they're not your rules, they're their rules. And and when I say rules, everyone has their own set of rules. People have rules as to how you should spare money, people have rules as to how you should spend your spare time, people have rules as to how you should dress or how you should act or what you should do in public or what you shouldn't do in public. I remember going to a tea house with um with mum and dad, and everyone was so well dressed, and everyone was so smart. And I did actually have, I was rushed from here, and I was still in my wellies. Or the other day, I went to the supermarket up the road, and what was I wearing? Nothing on your feet. Nothing on my feet. But I still managed to buy you some wine and some chocolates. And the people at that it was a conversation starter. And so I suppose what I'm saying is for some people that would be so against their rules, it would be actively inhibited that they couldn't go out. And for me, I was in the car already and I was like, I have no shoes. Don't worry, I'm just getting into grabbing. It's fine. It's fine. I suppose what I'm saying is lose other people's rules. Some people might have a rule that um for me, as long as my my dog's welfare is cared for and my emotional state is happy and their emotional state is happy, then I don't really care about someone else's rule as long as I'm not causing anyone else harm. And I think that for me is is my number. It's the dogs. I said they're all in the dog room. Yeah. Can't they come out? No. And I think that's Linda's rule, and it's absolutely fine. And then we were just talking a minute ago in the car park, we were walking bobble, and he'd met Brave. And you said one of the biggest things that he struggled with is people grabbing him. Yeah, he doesn't actually like the people grabbing him. Now, um, did I try and grab him? No. And is it likely that I'm ever going to try and grab him and smush him? No. And you just know that's not coming from me because my rules are don't do that to my dogs. So I actually wouldn't then do that to someone else's dog. And I actually have no need to. I have no need to do it. Whereas actually typically people do do that, don't they? And then how does he feel?

SPEAKER_00: 25:27

I well, he's started to feel really unsure about people because they're because he's a toy poodle. They keep going over the top of him, and he's like, Don't do that to me. I uh sometimes people think I'm standoffish because I will never interact with their dogs. I'll never interact with their their puppy that they've got there. Exactly. I don't go. Not give me. I don't do it. Yeah, I need it.

SPEAKER_01: 25:49

I don't do it. Because I don't think it's fair. And the other thing, and like, don't get me started, I'm ranting now. The other thing is some of the dogs that I've had as as babies. So um, for example, I'll give you Mel, our lovely, our lovely physio. So Mel's Phoenix, I bred, I adore her, I think she's a fantastic dog, but I never want her going gooey and stupid over me when I get to a competition because she's got a job to do. So she's there at the competition to do a job. So if I make it all about me and I'm gooing all over her, then actually she's not able to.

SPEAKER_00: 26:18

You're interfering with her ability to perform.

SPEAKER_01: 26:20

Exactly that. And so for me, it's about her relationship with her owner. So yeah, no, no going, going, gooey. So I suppose go back to the point. The point was you make the rules. And and Linda made the rule that when people come into a house, her dogs are away. I make the rule that when I'm doing a podcast, my dogs are away. Um, unless I deliberately put them out and I know the scenario is going to be no one coming up at the door, no one like knocking on the door, because actually, if not, I've got other things to manage. And so if they're in the dog room, then that's that's safe. So whatever is is right for you. And the other thing is you don't have to justify your rules. No, yeah, you actually don't. Like I might explain them for you to understand them, but you actually don't need to justify them as long as you're happy and everyone's welfare and and needs are met. Yeah. Okay, do you have another one? Any others that help you with life sentencing?

SPEAKER_00: 27:01

So the the control and management thing. So I I wear a hip belt. Yeah, you sent me a link to that one so you can look at that. So I so that the so I've got so ping is on a flexi that is fixed on fixed.

SPEAKER_01: 27:15

Just explain that to me because I was intrigued anyway, and everyone may as well hear this because we're going to have this conversation. So I do use a flexi at times, and the reason I do is because I've got a dog who's quite kamikaze, uh, very, very enthusiastic. The physio said to me, Slow her down. I struggle on a long line to pick it up quick enough. I also want to feed back some tension sometimes to her and go, no, no, no. And I say I I want it in my hands, really, and I want her walking, trotting, cantering, but no more than that. My other dogs are all very safe. I walk in a bridal path where I see nobody else, and we have very private land, so it's it's our own land. So um it's private. So for me, the flexi is appropriate in those environments. Now, with the hip belt, how does that attach? Like, what do you do? So you you put it on the clock.

SPEAKER_00: 27:54

So the hip pull and clip round my hips. Yeah. So I put the the clip through the handle of the flexi. So the clip flexi through the handle dangling off the hip belt. So I can have two hands free. Nice, but the dog might pull on the flexi and I want to break it a bit, so I just put my hand on it down on the brake. So I can have my hands free for other things like feeding or managing the other dog, picking bobble up, or picking bobble up, but ping has a flexi to work with.

SPEAKER_01: 28:21

And just for everyone out there who's going, I hate flexies. You know what? One of the things I really despise about society these days is you can have a different opinion and it's okay, but so many people have a different opinion, it's not okay. For me, you can have a different opinion. That's absolutely fine. Have a different opinion, and we all have our own experience, which leads often to our opinion. I think prefer the flexies that are ribbon and mine is thick, not the cheese wire. Yeah, mine's thick. And at the same time, we're not saying use flexies. What we're saying is use what's appropriate to you. And those are some of what um Linda's management is. Now, I'm gonna take that once first once more, and I'm gonna go with our number six being management is training. And I remember a trainer, she's a a foreign trainer, and she said to me once, well, you're not doing that right because you're managing it, and management isn't training. Now, for me, management is training, and I'll explain why. Dogs are learning 24-7, and if you allow them to learn the wrong thing and you keep allowing them to learn the wrong thing by not managing a situation, they are training the wrong thing and they are building the wrong thing and they are learning the wrong thing. And I think that's massive. So for me, management is training, and I'll give you an example of management. Linda, before before we started the podcast, we popped Skittle in the garden. Yes. I knew she'd want a little whiz around and a run around out there. I popped Katie back in and she went into the pen, had a few scatter foods, and she was good. That is management. Yes. Yeah, it's management because I'm on a podcast. I didn't fancy managing her. I'd love to manage the chickens right now, who are very loud, aren't they? But you can't hear them, I'm pretty sure. But if you do hear them, like there's some things you can manage, there's some things you can't. But management for me is training.

SPEAKER_00: 29:55

It is, it really is training. Like I, you know, I have film on the windows at home because Ping likes to police for the local cats. Nice. That is that is that is training because it's keeping his stress levels down so that he's then more open to learning the things he needs to learn, not worrying about policing the perimeter of our property.

SPEAKER_01: 30:16

Management is training another one. We've got both of us have got vans where we uh we're ladies with vans, girls with vans, high five. Girls with vans. Girls of vans. And when we're in these vans, for me, I decide who's going up and who's going down. Because some of my dogs are appropriate on top deck, and some of mine are not appropriate on top deck, and they're going downstairs. Some of my dogs are appropriate with guests, others are not. When you came into the yard, there's a dog loose, braves loose in the yard, appropriate with people walking in the yard. She's not going to be a security dog. She's never going to bark, she's never going to run at you. She's just going to go, hi, Linda, what have you got? And so for me, management is training. Dogs learn 24-7, whether you want to be involved or not. Absolutely. So if you don't want to be involved, they'll probably learn anyway. So Skittle, within an hour, she'll be back in again. Why? Because after that, I imagine she'll be working on swallows and working on how to work the swallows around the garden. Yes. So that's enough time for her. And I think these are things we always need to think about. Digging, for example, management is training. So I don't have any mud in my garden. So my dogs can't learn digging. And if I was going to let them dig, I'd put a sandpit in the garden. Or water, for example, we've got a water sort of garden there for them to play in, but I I lock it off. It's behind gates. So if it's hot, I open it. And if it's not, I shut it. Because if not, they're in it all the time.

SPEAKER_00: 31:27

So I've got this new toy poodle. Oh, go on. And the the friends who motivated me to get a toy poodle for years have always said, Oh, we have to do this because he steals my socks and he steals my clothes. And I used to think that's just poor training. The docks, you know. Anyway, I now have a poodle. Steals this and he steals funny. He's so I'm having to manage myself so that I minimize the number of times socks disappear. Safe. So you know, you get in there, you got hot feet in the summer and you take the shoes and socks off. Spaniel. You own a spaniel. And the socks disappear or something. And I can I'm in the cottage and my my wash bag was open, and I could see him going, what should I have? What shall I select out of here? At least he selects and dives in. Just zip so that he doesn't keep on rehearsing that behavior.

SPEAKER_01: 32:24

Another one for me is stair gates, putting a stairgate open if you don't want your dog upstairs. None of my dogs now go upstairs. They don't go upstairs unless you invite them. If you invite them, they do. And we don't have, you can see behind us, there's no gate on those stairs. And yet they never try to go upstairs, except Blink, except Blink, she does. But everybody else, nobody ever tries. Nobody ever tries. So management of training. Okay, so we're thinking any more survival tips when you've been given a life sentence? Any more survival tips? And I'm I'm gonna add one and then you definitely add another. I'm gonna say actually look after yourself, have sane people to listen to, have a good community, the absolute dogs community. I know for you, you've been in the community a long time. It's really helped in so many different aspects, more than dog training.

SPEAKER_00: 33:05

Absolutely more than dog training. It it's about having support for you as an individual, because I think when you've got a dog that has struggles like naughty but nice dogs, you feel like you've you're the you know you feel inadequate.

SPEAKER_01: 33:18

You feel inadequate.

SPEAKER_00: 33:19

You're the pariah in the village who's got the bad dog and everybody else's dog is perfect. It's embarrassing. And they're all judging you because you can't go down the recreation with poppy, she used to make me feel so short. So there's something wrong with you. But it makes you feel really joining, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 33:35

It makes you feel really inadequate.

SPEAKER_00: 33:37

And I know people end up walking their dogs at two o'clock in the morning. The late night walkers or the early morning walkers to avoid everybody. To avoid everybody.

SPEAKER_01: 33:44

And and you feel guilty. Yeah, but you also feel like why me? Yes. Why me, instead of try me. So so absolutely the support network, I think, in absolute dogs is just really important. Exceptional. Really exceptional. Go on, any of the survival tips? Survival tips for owners who've been given a life sentence.

SPEAKER_00: 34:02

Well, never ever go on a dog walk without without rewards. Absolutely. Never ever. I I we never go without poo bags. Why do we ever think without reinforcement? We don't go without without reinforcement. Massive. We must always go with reinforcement. Massive, massive. And use it when you don't need it. That's the thing that you know we practice all these things and rehearse them and rehearse them, and then don't do it, and then think it's going to happen when there's a stress situation happens. I'm constantly recalling my dogs, constantly scattering so that they get that rehearsal in first before it's needed. Because my my very first reactive dog, the one when it was a relief that I no longer had a I taught her, in my ignorance, to scan the horizon. You and me both, Poppy was the same.

SPEAKER_01: 34:51

As soon as I pull her back, she was going, What are you falling me away from? And that's just that. Here's a great example of why that happens. It happens because you're not varying enough when you're doing your calls. So you've become very, very predictive or predictable rather for the dog. So the dog knows that every time she does this crazy like call, it means that there's something in the environment. So actually, I just see this as a pre-q to something in the environment. So rather than like wait to look at her, I'm just gonna go find the thing in the environment and sort it all out. Massive. We poppy and um what was your first dog's name? That was Raven. So Raven and Poppy would have been very, very similar, very, very similar and brilliant dog, lovely dog, but just poorly understood at the time. Like I I know with Poppy I I didn't understand that. And the other thing, and I think this is really important, I don't think I had the right team to support her either. And I don't just mean my trainer team, I also mean my own dogs because I think my own dogs are very stable right now. So I think I can bring in an unstable dog because I think they they're very adaptable to it. The group is very balanced, whereas when I had Poppy, the group wasn't very balanced. And so when I had a less balanced group, they then educate each other too. I do. And so actually, like you said, it can be a bit of a life sentence because then the next dog learns it and the next dog learns it and the next dog learns it, so there can be a real a little bit unrest, really.

SPEAKER_00: 36:10

And over the years, it's been very interesting as a long-term dog owner with a pack of dogs to see the things that are passed down through the pack and who started it and is no longer with us, and this behavior is still being carried on because they've learnt it in the pack.

SPEAKER_01: 36:27

Nature nurture, and um, and for sure there's a lot of learning there. Well, I think for me, the biggest thing to know with the life sentence actually is perspective is massive, and actually how you what your perspective is and and how you you tackle that. There's a whole I said to Matt the other day, and you'll like this one, I said, I can't do that. And I was at a championship. So it's a big event. I said, I can't do that. And he said, yet. And I love that, right? It's that perspective, isn't it? Yes, and sometimes when we have that perspective, for me, would I pick another life sentence dog if I had to and I was working on what my next dog was going to be? No. None of us walk into that dog and go, yes, I want a really challenging dog, a dog that's gonna push all my buttons and make me feel inadequate. However, if I find myself with a dog who has struggles, do I take them on as a worthy opponent? Yes. Do I say try me? Yes. And actually, do I feel adequate now to be able to handle that? And I would say yes, with the support of the absolute dogs community, people like Linda, with people um that we work with, Dave, all of our great training is. How about you, Linda?

SPEAKER_00: 37:31

It's a learning opportunity, it's about looking for the what we need to learn as people, not it's not a blaming situation. That's what I I try to get out of the people that I'd work with. It's not about fault and blame, it's about the relationship you have with the dog and building the best way forward for both of you, like you do with a partner. It's a life partnership. It is.

SPEAKER_01: 37:58

So, guys, that was this episode of the Sex and Squirrel Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it because we know that our special naughty but nice dogs, we know their strategies. We know there are so many different options for them. And most of all, they are in the absolute dogs community. So do join us. Thank you, Linda, for joining. Bye vibe, and we will see you guys real soon.