Relationship Comes First

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I think relationship is really the heart of it. If you if you can do something that's going to safeguard your relationship with your dog, then that's a bit of a no-brainer to me.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Welcome

What Cooperative Care Means

SPEAKER_00 0:20

to the Absolute Dog Sext in a Squirrel podcast. I'm Lauren Langman. I'm one of the world's leading dog trainers, and it's my mission to help owners become their dog's top priority. In each episode, you'll discover how to gain trust and communicate with your dog like never before, creating unbreakable bonds that make you the most exciting part of their world. Cooperative care, you know what, is massive. And Karen, you know probably more than most when you've got a dog that doesn't like being handled, and you maybe visit the vets or the groomers, or you have a dog that maybe needs grooming, like you have a cockapoo, he needs grooming. Why does cooperative care matter? What even is cooperative care? Do I need it?

SPEAKER_01 0:57

I would say everybody needs it. I mean, I'm just learning from Jamie and from the new course, but it's just so helpful. And it's it's one of those things that I kind of wish I'd known nine years ago, because Rupert really does not like being handled. And he goes to a groomer and he is fine with the groomer. But I would say he probably shuts down and she's even acknowledged that he kind of goes in there, he hates it, he stands still and he has stuff done to him, which is the exact opposite of cooperative care, which is all about having the dog kind of opt in and say, Yes, I am cool with this. And if I'm not quite cool with something, I've got the right to tell you, and you will stop. And that's such a massive difference in how you kind of handle it. I think that's just so powerful because if a dog is not enjoying something, yes, there are some things that still have to be done, but being able to do that with the dog kind of in control of it is so much nicer.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Now, I know watching the cooperative care learning and all of the cool skills that we've had the opportunity to work with and see and do and train with our dogs, there are a few that I'm like, yes, yes, and yes. What would you say would be one of your light bulb moments, or one of the ones that you look at and you go, that is a skill I want to teach, and that is a skill I want to teach now?

Muzzle Training For Real Confidence

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Muzzle training, which is just one tiny element of it, but there is quite a lot of learning on that in the course. Rupert can have a muzzle put on him, but again, it happens at the vet's. The vet will put it on if I think he's likely to tell the vet with his teeth that he doesn't enjoy something, and that's just for everybody's safety. But for him to be happily putting a muzzle on would be so much better and would allow us to kind of open up his world quite a lot more as well, because then he could go out on walks and be okay, potentially, if another dog came into his space, I would be a lot happier that there was no damage going to happen there. But at the moment, he'll happily play muzzle games, we've got that far, and he loves food, so he'll very happily stick his face in a muzzle and eat any amount of food out of that. But there's that bit where you kind of get a bit stuck, and just having watched all of the amazing learning in that course and seeing Katie playing games with her muzzle on and just loving life with a muzzle on, even though she probably doesn't really particularly like a muzzle, it's just such a different dynamic. So that definitely is something that we're gonna pursue.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

And I know for me, when I was doing and and building and growing the course alongside Jamie, probably one of the ones for me that I really loved and I thought this makes complete sense again, is holding a bar and having your teeth looked at, or holding a bar for stillness and having a tick removed from your head. Because I don't know if you've ever removed a tick from a dog who really isn't happy about having the tick removed. Oh my goodness, it's hard work, it's really hard work. So actually, that was again a real nice like light bulb and and eye-opener.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Yeah, and seeing your dogs do that, it's just so amazing to see because they're they're obviously opting into that, they've learned all the skills, and that's really that's a really important part of it. You teach the skills first and they understand the behavior, and they understand the behavior with duration. So those are all kind of levels that you have to build, and then they have that way of kind of opting into the behavior, but then if at any point they're uncomfortable, they just let go and you stop.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

But also understanding that actually they're part of the the chain of events. So I love the fact that my dogs kind of do, should we play this? Like this is a cool thing to play. Now, the holding of the bar, so holding the bar, having tick removed, holding the bar, having a bandage applied, holding of the bar, having your teeth looked at, holding the bar, having your teeth cleaned, all of those things you actually can see huge practical application for them. So the practical application is very much there. And I think that's also really important to acknowledge, I suppose, that there is a massive practical application here.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Yeah, I mean, there are so many things that in the the life of a dog you potentially have to do. So obviously, me with a doodle, that there's a there's regular grooming has to happen there. But as you mentioned there, tick removal, I've had to do that with Rupert. I did that by smearing peanut butter on a glass window and getting him to lick the window, but it wasn't ideal. And he wasn't necessarily opting in. And I think there's a there's a real difference there between, particularly with a foodie dog, you can kind of almost bribe them into something, and that's definitely not what you want to be doing either, really. And the the real difference, and it's maybe a bit nuanced, but it's it's a really important difference, I think, with cooperative care is that you're using food to reinforce, but you're also there's that conversation happening. So they're still they're still saying, Yeah, I'm cool with this. And if they're not saying, yeah, I'm cool with this, then you go back and you build it more.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Yeah, it's such a nice, it's such a nice way of having a conversation with a dog almost, isn't it? You're having a conversation rather than forcing and making it your way or the highway. And I think that's probably one of the biggies, is it always has been, hasn't it, your way or the highway, um with most dogs. Now, for me,

Chin Target For Stress-Free Bloods

SPEAKER_00 6:12

vet visits, I had a vet visit recently, and probably my favourite behavior at the vet visit was a chin target. Now, the dog that I took needed to have a blood draw. And a blood draw, what I've also realized with blood draws is they always go better when the patient is relaxed. And that's whether the patient is a human or the patient is a dog. So if you're a stressed-out human having a blood test, your blood is not easy to get hold of. And the same with your dog. If they are cold, if they are trembly, if they are averse to having it done, if they're wriggly, then ideally my dogs always have a blood draw from the leg. Ideally, my dogs also don't need to have their leg shaved because they're about to compete often or they're the they're in the middle of a competition season, so I don't really want a leg shaved. It just looks odd. Like it's a reason for someone to ask you why your dog's leg shaved. And for me, it might just be a routine bloods. I would prefer to do it there than the neck because the neck is often again another clip area, and I like to do to do the leg. But if your dog's not relaxed and if your dog's not able to be comfortable enough and the veins like kind of show, then then all of that could be quite difficult. Now, I was at VETS with a young dog, she popped her chin on my hand to the permission chin target game. So we played the permission chin target game. She gave me the chin target, and with that, I asked her to lift the leg. So I just took the elbow and lifted the leg. Vet took the leg, uh, vet drew the blood with in like literally 30 seconds, no shaving, no nothing. It was such an easy draw, probably the easiest draw we have ever done. And the chin target really did make it happen. What do you think, Karen? Because I was like, Yeah, absolutely. This is how it should look.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yeah, it's so nice, isn't it, when they're just participating willingly and there's no fight and there's no drama. And I'm pretty sure every vet you speak to or every groomer you speak to would would be really happy to know somebody had worked through this process as well, because it makes it so much easier for everybody. So the dog's not stressed, the vet's not stressed, the vet's not potentially going to get bitten or have a struggle doing something that they need to do. The human who is taking the vet, the dog into the vet, or the groomer is not stressed as well. I'm stressed every time I leave Rupert at the groomer because I know he doesn't like it. And she's brilliant, she's lovely, but he endures that. And to have a dog endure something is is so far away from having a dog enjoying something or opting into something, saying, Yes, I'm cool with this, and okay, I just need a minute and then I'm cool with this again.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Yeah, yeah. And and I think that I need a minute, like that is us as well, right? Like we have moments of going, just give me a second, I'll just say like work this through or think this through. Or the other thing I think probably the biggest part for me is they actually understand it. They have a way of understanding it. So it's not just permission, it's also understanding, isn't it? It's actually the the understanding of it, it all working and how it all works and what all works and what it is.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Yeah, because you layer it so much, and you you learn, well, pause on or chin target or hold a bar or whichever exercise you're working on, and you've you've built that game as a game, and they they enjoy it and they understand it, and then you introduce something else, and you do it also so gradually when you watch Jamie in the course, she's introduced and and I think in real life you would go way slower than the course because obviously she's she's showing all the stages, but she she explains how you you teach uh a thing like the the chin or the the bar hold, and then you proof it. So the proofing it might just be a kind of little wiggle of your hands to start with, and then you eventually get to the point where you you touch the dog and you you start somewhere where you know your dog's going to be comfortable, and then you move to somewhere where they're going to be slightly less comfortable, and you and then if they're not happy with that, then you move back to somewhere they are comfortable and you build it so gradually that actually they're caught with it because they understand that you're going at their pace and then you're not doing anything scary, and if they don't like it, you kind of go back a bit. It's just such a nice way to do it.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Now, in

Proofing Skills Without Pushing

SPEAKER_00 10:03

terms of skills and in terms of someone maybe thinking about doing the cooperative care badge or the cooperative care learning or the cooperative care, sort of even the 10 days to happy handling. For somebody who thinks, I mean, I'm gonna go to some of my clients, I love them, they're really, but they're like, Yeah, I know that. I know that. Do they know that or do they not know that yet, Karen?

SPEAKER_01 10:21

I think they probably don't know that yet. I mean, even in the 10 days, there's so the foundation stuff, and some of it you might watch it. So there's one lesson in there, which is throw a ball in a box. And you might watch that and think, what the heck does that have to do with handling or cooperative care or anything? But then you see how that progresses into the main course, and you've got Katie throwing her muzzle in the box and playing with the muzzle and feeling confident with a muzzle, and the muzzle is fun, the muzzle's a toy, and and you do head in a box, and then that's another way of kind of opting in. I've done some of that with Ruth as well. We actually did that at the Vets the other day. It's just it's just such a nice way to train, but there's so much, even in that foundation course, so many layers and so many levels. And I mean, things like teaching a dog to lie flat, for example, it's a really vulnerable position for a dog. And Jamie talks it through so nicely and explains how you kind of build it. And then once your dog's in that position, how you make sure they're happy with you kind of coming towards them with a hand, putting a hand on them, and even something as kind of insignificant, but really not insignificant at all, like how the dog then gets up from that position again, so that the energy is right, so then it remains a calm behavior. And I think that's particularly true for any dogs that have worked on tricks. Rupert does a go dead and then really springs up from that behavior when I say Rupert's alive, and it's brilliant as a trick, but really unhelpful if you want him to lie for and then not come alive.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

That's real funny. That is really funny.

When Handling Really Matters

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Now, the other thing I think I suppose have learned in owning dogs myself and having dogs for for many, many years, is that you never know when you're gonna need it. Now, I've had a couple of instances. One, um, a put to sleep incident. So actually, my dog did have a tumour and an end-of-life condition, and put to sleep is is is traumatic enough, let alone have it very stressful. The second one, a dog who's paralyzed, brave, paralyzed, sprinting across a field. Both of those situations would be made better with cooperative care. Both of those situations would be made, they're already very stressful situations, they're already heightened stress. Uh let's not make them more stressful. Yeah, let's not have them any more difficult. Let's not have them any any worse. So I think that me, cooperative care, when you see a situation like either of those, cooperative care again makes it's funny because easy had such good cooperative care. Actually, her put to sleep was almost a lovely thing. I I I don't know how to explain it. I I know that probably sounds really weird to some people listening out there. Her put to sleep was actually really pleasant. Her put to sleep was as good as it gets. If you're gonna choose a way to go, I'd go the way Easy went. Right? Like it it would there was nothing traumatic or she was playing with her toy one minute and the next minute she was asleep. And and for me, it doesn't get better than that. And so for me, cooperative care is it's it's also like a pattern and a pathway of sort of how life can go. And so, right from your your puppy's very first maybe vaccine or blood test through to their very last breath, you actually have a good relationship with them. And for me, there's not like this wrestling or biting or stressing or dog that's I mean, I I have dogs that come to the training center that are sedated to have a groom, I have dogs that come to the training center that are sedated to have the nails clipped, I have dogs that come to the training center that have to have full-on anaesthetic when they need any sort of physical bodywork. And so for me, those things seem really hard when you consider the alternative, which is actually train the art conversation with your dog in handling, really is what we're calling it, isn't it? Is it's the art of conversation, the art of sort of permission-based learning in in cooperative care. And it's just such a lovely, in my opinion, it's such a lovely skill to have. And it's one that I don't think any owner should go without it. I actually think it's it's it's almost one of those things. If we had like owner licenses, it'd be something I'd license. I'd be like, everyone should have it.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Yeah. Yeah, because it does, it touches every aspect of your life. I mean, you might not have a dog that needs grooming like I do, but most dogs are going to need to have a bath at some point. Most dogs are going to need to have some equipment attached to them, whether that's a harness or a collar or a head collar or a muzzle. We have a big harness, a big harness struggle, which again, the learning in the course has been amazing. We were working kind of on getting him comfortable again with his harness anyway, but even just kind of flipping around how you see that and turning that into a conversation, but also a conversation where he's in a position that he is comfortable in, and then the harness goes on without a battle, is it makes so much difference to how a walk starts, how anything starts. He can't travel without a harness. So you're very restricted if you can't do something as simple as put a harness on. I was thinking about this when I knew we were going to talk about this. I remember when he was really little, the first time I tried to put a harness on him. He he disliked it even then. And I there was so much I didn't know at that point. And it definitely was a battle, even at that point. No, it wasn't a battle at that point where I was being bitten, it was a battle where he was very wriggly and tried to hide under a table. But you could see even then the signs that actually this is a dog that's not going to particularly enjoy any intentional handling. And he definitely knows the difference. He loves a cuddle, but anything where you're intending to do something to him, he's really not all in with that at all. Whereas if his learning had been different, we'd made it a conversation from the beginning. I think a lot of the struggles we have now, we wouldn't have.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Absolutely huge. Because, like I said, all these are observations now, Karen, that you're going, Oh, I do remember that now. I'll be trying to put a harness on him, be wriggling, and then he'd hide under something. But these were all him saying no. They were all him saying, I don't give my permission for this. Yeah. And like I said, I think it's huge. Now, for an owner who's completely beginner and who's thinking, what on earth then? Why is a dog giving me permission? I'm the owner, I'm the one that's in charge. For me, the biggest reason I would teach cooperative care is actually you safeguard your relationship with your dog, and your dog safeguards sort of their confidence, and you you help to look after their confidence. So actually, a dog who has has this, you are like you said earlier on, you're the vet's dream, you're the vet's sort of best customer. You are every dog groomer's um hope. I'm the one that would say, Yeah, if you only get three legs done, that's fine. Do as many legs as you can do, right? It's it's a weird thing to say though, because most people do want four legs and they'd be very disappointed if you had to stop for any reason. So I think there is a level of for me, I'd want to be owned by an owner like this. How about you, Karen?

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Yeah, definitely. I and I think relationship is really the heart of it. If you if you can do something that's going to safeguard your relationship with your dog, then that's a bit of a no-brainer to me. I've had blips in the nine years Rupert and I have owned each other where our relationship hasn't been that great and it's not nice. And even if you've got the most laid back, chilled, you can do anything to me, dog. You still don't really want to be doing things to your dog. You want to be doing it with them. I think I think that conversation is just really important.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Huge, absolutely massive, like really, really, really huge.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

And I think it's and I think dogs really can communicate when they're comfortable with something. I I was I remember telling a friend that I was being very intentional about making sure Rupert was consenting to touch, which sounds slightly daft, I s I think, or it certainly sounded daft to this particular person, the response I got, but making sure that he's kind of asked for hands on him, rather than just assuming that he wants hands on him, because although he loves the cuddle, I do think he's probably sore. And I do think there are some instances in which he probably doesn't want his body touched. And I think that's just it's a simple respect thing, isn't it? If I was sore, I wouldn't want somebody grabbing me either.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

And actually, uh from a sore point of view, again, cooperative care gives you a level of trust that you can actually handle the dog and work out where pain is without pushing it so far they can't handle it. Because effectively, again, you can work with communication. So you and the dog are communicating better. So overall, for me, massive, like absolutely massive. I I I think that every dog and every dog owner should have it. You I really do.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

I really do. I doesn't matter what level of handling or owning or however many dogs you've had, I do think you'll learn something. You'll learn lots, actually.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Grooming a dog, nail clipping, teeth cleaning, dogs being able to allow you to remove a tick, dogs being able to have a catheter inserted, dogs being able to have their vaccination or some sort of blood draw. It's all covered, it's all in there. It's a big deal. Now,

How To Start The Training

SPEAKER_00 19:41

if someone wants to get a hold of the badge, Karen, how can someone go about that and do that?

SPEAKER_01 19:45

They can hit our website and they just need to go to absolutely dogs.me forward slash corporative care and it's all there. And it's bundled so that if you buy the full course, you get the foundation, which is the 10 days to happy handling. And that's definitely where you start. And even if you think you've got a lot of those foundations, I would say that's still where you start because it definitely builds.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

And if someone is starting today, and if someone is in there today, is there stuff they could learn straight away? Like how does it work?

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Yes, definitely. So it although it's a 10-day course, I wouldn't say it's a you're 10 days and you're done. It's here's the first 10 days and then you carry on, but you have access to it straight away, all of it straight away. You don't even need to work through it day one to 10. You could pick the one that you fancied if you wanted to start putting balls in a box, you could start there. There's a written resource in the 10 days course as well, which gives you some more foundation learning. Just just start because it's fun and it's very accessible and it's really short lessons and it talks you through it.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Brilliant. No, brilliant. I absolutely love it. I think cooperative carries the way forward. I think that dog ownership gets better. I think that dogs being owned by humans get better for them. It gets better for them too. And the best part is I think it's really accessible. I think everyone can do it. And I actually think as a dog owner, we should have it. It's our duty to have it, and our duty to have it better for our dogs. So thank you, Karen, for joining us. Thank you, Rupert, for allowing Karen to join us. And most of all, I know that dogs worldwide are going to benefit from a new brand spanking new cooperative care course. Absolutely, I definitely think they are.