When Proximity Falls Apart

SPEAKER_00 0:00

With dogs who are pulling on lead or or that you know have chasy behaviors or poor recall or those kind of things, the value is elsewhere, the value is out there, not close by us. So if we actually play those games that put the value close by the human, close by the handler, and put fun into that, then that's kind of what builds us good because it builds the value.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel podcast. I'm Lauren Langman. I'm one of the world's leading dog trainers, and it's my mission to help owners become their dog's top priority. In each episode, you'll discover how to gain trust and communicate with your dog like never before, creating unbreakable bonds that make you the most exciting part of their world. Today I'm joined by the wonderful Alice. Now, wonderful Alice, we're talking proximity. I've got two proximity stories to tell you guys, straight off the sort of at the beginning here. And both of them have had a really strong, I suppose, impact on me over the last few weeks. One of them, I've been looking after a friend's dog, and she bogged off in the woods, and she bogged off after deer or hunting. And I just didn't expect it. I didn't see it coming. I didn't think it was going to happen, largely because she's a border collie, and my border collie's don't go off hunting deer, and she did. And I was just really surprised and taken back because she'd given me no indication that that was going to happen. And then my second proximity um story is I've been working with a young border collie, she's a really nice border collie and lovely Leslie who trains here and works here and sort of teaches with us. She was going to pop her on lead, and I saw this dog immediately flip on its back and roll on its back, in the sense that proximity was not threatening, but maybe not as comfortable as it could be. And you could see that it push, if push came to shove, I think she'd possibly do that like whole might wet myself type behaviour. And it was proximity that created that and potential pressure. Even though Leslie's really just genuinely lovely and kind and always sort of 100% with this dog, for me, the nature is that proximity is pressure. How about you?

What Proximity Really Means

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Where do we start with proximity?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Oh well, for any any new listeners, what we're talking about with proximity really is that desire for your dog to just hang out close by you, and like you say, in a comfortable way, in a not a pressured way, but just to really enjoy hanging out by your side. So, I mean, uh for for me, with my dog training experience with my dog Bonnie, she's a large, kind of massive mixed breed. She's got a bit of a patchy history. So as we were sort of training and growing her world and growing our walks and kind of aiming towards some off-leash freedom, we really needed to know before that clip came off that it was going to be no big deal. And actually, she was going to just keep hanging out close by us on or off lead. So it was a really important skill for us to teach her. Like what I guess some listeners will be wondering kind of what kind of behaviors we would see with dogs that could maybe do with a little bit more proximity. And I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is something like poor recall. How about you?

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Massive. I mean, for me, a dog who doesn't have proximity doesn't get off leash freedom. A dog who doesn't have proximity often doesn't walk well on lead. A dog who doesn't have great proximity often lacks focus and lacks sort of basic day-to-day behaviors. And for me, even something like uh the fact that I've got three of my dogs on a boundary behind me, that they hang out in close proximity, but they also have impulse control on a boundary. So we can kind of mix up some of the concepts to make for an even better dog. But off Lee Shriedom, one of the biggest reasons I got my dogs or have my dogs is I enjoy exercising them, I enjoy being outside with them. I would enjoy being outside with them less if they bog off. And I know that, for example, Badger, the the dog who really did bog off this last couple of weeks, I found that entirely stressful. Everything about that was stressful. There was nothing enjoyable about that experience, and I definitely wouldn't sign myself up for that willingly. And so, like you said, for a new owner coming into us, maybe you're struggling with recall, maybe you're struggling with dog pulling on lead, maybe you're struggling with the fact that your dog generally isn't able to sort of hang out. You go to the park and maybe they they will recall eventually, but they don't come first time every time, type thing. Yeah, those things really do matter to me. So, so yeah, really important. I think we crack those as early as we can.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Definitely, definitely. So, like, you know, what we're saying is really then that a dog that has trained some proximity and has learned to have value for proximity, you're gonna see much better loose-lead walking skills, you're gonna see that responsibility to be able to have that off leash freedom so that you know they're either just gonna hang out, keep hanging out close by, or if they do go and have a little explore, they're gonna recall on that first try. So you can have that stress-free war, those stress-free experiences and enjoy just hanging out and exercising with your dog, which is gorgeous.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

And for me, the when you say like the with Bonnie, that you wanted her to just continue being able to hang out, that's what I'm really looking for. And I was walking, we have a young board collie, her name is Kansas, and we were walking with her the other day. And my goal is that you let her off lead and the walk continued the same. Yeah, exactly. It's not like you let them off lead and there's one big party, it's that you let them off lead and they continue to stroll, or they continue to strut, or they continue to do what they were doing. That for me is really important, like that type of dog, that it feels like the same rhythm, the rhythm massively changed.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

I think that's yeah, yeah, because actually the magic of that is also at the other end of the walk, is when the clip goes back on. It's not a punishment, it's not that the party is over. You just that's just something that happens.

Games That Make You Valuable

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Shall we dive into kind of giving a couple of examples of how we might play proximity games and how we might grow this content with our dogs?

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Absolutely. So, so I was training my dog, I do agility, I was training my dog agility earlier. I wanted to grab hold of her collar. She doesn't like me grabbing hold of her collar. That has to be something built and trained. And so, what I did to get her into my space, I threw the piece of food between my legs. So she ran between my legs. I then turned around, she turned around to look for another piece of food. I got her to sort of jump on my front on her front legs onto my leg. So I fed her for two up on me, and then I grabbed her collar, and then I fed her for grabbing a collar. Now, some people would say, Oh, is she not like taking you for a fall? I threw a piece of food under my legs, I gave her a piece of food for touching my legs, and then I gave her another piece of food for me handling a collar. For me, she's a young dog, she's only 11 months old, and she's doing fantastically in the sense that she doesn't like being like grabbed or caught. And I I know, and this is really important, I spoke to a Border Collie on her yesterday, she was a new Border Collion, and she said to me, I've been kicked out of class, Lauren. I'm horrify, I'm horrified. And not my class, someone else's class. She lives in Bath, lovely lady, her name was Kathleen, and she said, I've been kicked out of class, Lauren. And I was like, What do you mean, Kathleen? You've been kicked out of class. She said, Well, my dog's been doing this and that and the other. And I just thought, God, they don't understand dogs. These people don't understand dogs. What they've been doing with this dog is they don't understand dogs. And they've been going in and getting hold of her when the puppy's already like hiding and turning on its back and things, and they got hold of her and the dog nipped them. For me, that is a very, very understandable border-collie behaviour. They don't like that pressure, they don't like that being pushed into a corner, they don't like that sort of there's just a lot of doubt in their mind when you're doing things like that. There's not enough confidence, and definitely for me, there's a proximity question as to whether they're comfortable in that way. Now, I'll give you an example of a dog that I would see very early as not liking proximity or being aware of proximity or pairings. I'll open my front door. One of my dogs is in the yard, she's a young dog, uh, 16 weeks old, like I said, she's called Kansas. You'll open the door, and as you open the door, she'll look at you and you open your arms to cuddle her, and then she's like, Are you gonna touch me and stop me going anywhere? Or is that proximity gonna end something? And so for me, what I would do is I would throw a piece of food in the house, and then I'd throw a piece of food out of the house, and then I'd do the same game through my legs, on my legs, grab the collar, and then sometimes let her out again. Because what she's learnt is that proximity ends the fun. And when proximity ends the fun, they don't want to be in proximity. I would also say with her, she's the type of dog that looks at you and lies down. If you've got one of these dogs that has a natural instinct to stay off you two foot, three foot, four foot, five foot, and I'd say typically I'd be horrified if it was a cockespaniel because that's just not in them. They like to be in your skin. Whereas my border collies, that's very natural to stand off two or three or four paces. So for me, it's interesting, useful information to acknowledge a dog that you have in front of you. So, for example, I've got three dogs here right now. I've got badger, I've got brave, and I've got Skittle. Badger is pretty good with proximity, but I would say has about a meter off you. Brave, very good with proximity, always good with proximity, very straightforward. Skittle, great with proximity until it's not on her terms. So it's when it's going to be ending something, ending the arena training, ending the walk, putting her in the car, taking her out of the car. In any of those instances, proximity, you can poison it very quickly. So you know the dog no longer wants to do any of it because actually it links to bad things for them. What do you think, Alice?

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Yeah, I think it kind of boils down to where is the value, doesn't it? Like so, like you were describing, kind of do it with the pieces of food to kind of reward kind of moving close to you or doing two pores up on you, so that that proximity holds value, it holds fun, it's it's a representation of being able to play games and get rewards. So in with dogs who are pulling on lead or or that you know have chasy behaviors or poor recall or those kind of things, the value is elsewhere, the value is out there, not close by us. So if we actually play those games that put the value close by the human, close by the handler, and put fun into that, then that's kind of what builds the skill because it builds the value. Bonnie's pretty naturally keen to stay close by anyway. I think like, you know, she's sort of she's not the most naturally independent of dogs. I think that maybe not it doesn't happen in all cases. Sometimes dogs can be terrible left alone and then bog off to the other side of the field as soon as they're off leash. But with with Bonnie, she she does tend to sort of like like to sort of check in. But it's still something we've grown because when we got her, she actually wasn't all that comfortable with eye contact, even from Chris or I. So actually having her put value in, just checking in and staying close, or you know, being handled or that kind of thing has all been grown, like you say, by putting value in those positions and in those games.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Exactly that, exactly that, and on every level that. Now, for me, let's go with some quick proximity games that we really enjoy, a bit of a ping-pong. And I know we've obviously given a couple. One of my others is actually, and I think Kev would be really surprised by this because it's not one that I usually say, but leg weaves. Like I really like playing leg weaves when I'm doing competitions to try and get my dogs to focus in a difficult environment, but also put the focus on me. So for me, anything that involves my body, so leg weaves would be one of mine. How about you, Alice?

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Oh, definitely. I love oh, middle toes. And yes, I do do that with my 45 kilo dog.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

So explain what it is for people that haven't.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

So middle, middle in general, is a fantastic proximity game. This is just sort of teaching your dog to have value for standing in between your legs. If you've got a super big dog and it doesn't work, you can play side in super side instead of middle. But it's just super cute when you step that game up a bit and then you teach your dog to put their paws on your feet in middle position. And I love that. And it's such a kind of it's like it's like turning yourself into a portable boundary as well, I find. I really like that one.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

That's a really nice way of putting it, Alice. So turning yourself into a portable boundary. And please notice that Alice is trying really hard to make sure she makes everything very accessible. So if you're new to us, it's hopefully really accessible. And if you're not new to us, then hopefully you guys can spread the word to people who are new to us. There's a really accessible podcast here. Now, my next one would probably be to suggest that everyone who's listening or here listening, if they're not already part of Games Club, the One Pound trial is there. Why should someone join the Games Club One Pound trial? And what is it, Alice?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Goodness mate, you get access to absolutely everything in Games Club. They're your first seven days, like you say, is just a pound. And so there is a dozen or more mini courses included in that. There is an entire library of games. So if you say if proximity is your main thing that you want to grow with your dog, you can go to the Games Club library and you can just go to the proximity section, and there'll be dozens of games there that are all designed by experts to help you grow that skill and help your dog to grow more value for hanging out close by you. And that's not even to mention the community support. You'll be in Games Club, we've got this massive, amazing community of like-minded dog owners who are all tackling similar struggles, or maybe they've overcome those struggles and they're there to help you and help sort of guide you and support you. It's just a really nice vibe. It's a really nice space to be part of.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

I and and anyone who's listening and thinking, oh, some of these games sound fun, go and try them. It's a pound. Yeah. Like that is literally like a quarter of your cup of coffee in the morning, or maybe even less than. Like it really is so accessible. Like, so accessible. For one pound, it is worth a shot, literally. So, my next game for proximity, I love like we've already discussed it briefly, but two feet on. And the reason I like it is because it forces the interaction to actually make the interaction a must. And so when I'm feeding them on me, a bit like you said about the portable boundary of middle toes, it's another portable boundary. That dog is kind of with me, and I kind of could like move forward a step or back a step or sideways a

Proximity For Safety And Reactivity

SPEAKER_01 14:20

step, and they'll stay with me. So I've often maneuvered around difficult situations with this. So, proximity for me, again, we train a lot of reactive dogs. We train a lot of dogs who don't like people, we train a lot of dogs who don't like dogs. When you're training reactive dogs, you're training dogs who don't like people, you train dogs who don't like dogs. Proximity really is your friend because proximity is your safety space. Alice, what would you say about safety and Bonnie and how you feel walking her because of proximity?

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Oh, it it's it's really made a difference. So certainly when we first got Bonnie, then safety was a major issue with walks, and walks was something that we needed to ditch and then gradually regrow as both our skills as handlers and Bonnie's skills in her training improved. And knowing that my Mastiff mixed dog with a bit of Apache history can hang out loose-lead walking by my side, and I can walk her on my own and and and just you know, we can just take the world in our stride, it's just such a lovely feeling. And we can enjoy our walks, they are stress-free. And, you know, I'm not, you know, worried that, you know, if we go for a walk in the woods and you know, she she's off lead, she's gonna go and have a little snip around and stuff, and then I know she's gonna, she's gonna clock back in and just come back and you know, kind of keep checking in and hang out with us. And it's just a really, really nice way to be.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

And how do you feel proximity has aided that or helped that?

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Because she has had so much rehearsal of having value for being close by us, for being rewarded for eye contact, for being rewarded when clip goes on, clip goes off, you know, with with on and off lead, or playing games like middle, like you know, middle toes, like magic hand, any and and all of these games are in games club. Like if listeners are thinking, what did she just say? Which game? Magic, what? They're all in games club. So grab that one-pound trial because you can find everything there. And actually, especially a game like Magic Hand, which is I should have mentioned as one of my favorites. We have an entire step-by-step training track for that skill. It's it's just a brilliant one to dive into.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

So there's a whole guide to it, and there's like you said, a track. So actually, you run through and there's game by game by game by game by game by game by game, and so it's already like in order for people, right? Absolutely. Okay, so one of the biggest things that we see and we struggle with, and a lot of people struggle with, would be the idea of a dog running off at distractions, a dog running off because they've heard something, or a dog running off because they like another dog, or these things all still come down to, for me, proximity, because it's a it's a question of value. Does that Labrador in the distance have better value than you being able to reinforce your dog? Does that, I don't know, squirrel, does that horse, does that sheep, does that whatever it is as a distraction? So whether it's a chase distraction or anything else, does that have more value than you do effectively? And I think that's really important to acknowledge as well.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

What do you think? Absolutely. I mean, what's the title of this podcast? Are we sexier than the squirrel? Yeah, really is. It's just where is the value?

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Yeah, yeah. And that's and that's I think one of the things that people really do struggle with is to get to the place that actually, yes, okay, they might have a recall when they've got some great food on them, but actually when the distraction hits or when something happens in the environment, do they then still have a great recall? Or we we walk past a lot of joggers, cyclists, other dogs in the morning. And for me, it's always that can I recall you in and can I feed you here so that these guys can all move past? And I'm not, I don't want my dogs interacting with

Games Club Trial And Next Steps

SPEAKER_01 17:56

them, so I don't need dogs interacting with them. And that for me is really important that the dogs don't interact with the things that are out there and happening. The dogs interact with me and the proximity games that we play. So that for me is really vital. Now, if someone wants to find out more, if someone wants to do more, if someone wants to help more, if someone wants to grow more in terms of proximity, where should they go, Alice? What should they do and how they find out more?

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Definitely jump into Games Club, definitely grab that one pound trial and yeah, just explore the games library, explore the mini courses, jump into the community, post your questions, post your struggles. People will be there to help and support you and help get you moving on your dog training journey.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Good stuff. Okay, so guys, you're listening. Share it with your friends, share it with your family. Proximity really does matter. It is the number one of skills. So it really is a number one skill. I 100% brave you to go back to your bed. I 100% know that absolutely in all of the skills we train, proximity really does matter. Check it out. One pound troll, we'll see you over there. If you're already over there, then make sure you tell us your favorite, favorite proximity game. We can't wait to hear it.