Welcome And A Quick Apology Rule

SPEAKER_02 0:00

And if you can't and you're in that situation and you've made a bit of a board up and you really shouldn't be there, at least go and grab your dog flipping quickly, get them back on lease and apologise profusely to the person that you've just interrupted their day. Welcome to the Absolute Dogs Text in a Squirrel podcast. I'm Lauren Langman. I'm one of the world's leading dog trainers, and it's my mission to help owners become their dog's top priority. In each episode, you'll discover how to gain trust and communicate with your dog like never before, creating unbreakable bonds that make you the most exciting part of their world. So horses and dogs, do they go, is it a good combo? Realistically, we're talking a big heavy animal. Yes. And a dog who potentially is quite volatile in that situation.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

What's your experience of horses, Michelle? So I've been riding horses since I was six, and my background is more horses than dogs, actually. So I've competed, I've owned my own horses, I've ridden in Canada, I rode and helped organize horse shows in Bermuda. So I've been around horses way more than I've been around dogs. And it's actually how I got into dog training because everybody I knew who had horses also had dogs. So dogs and horses can get along.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

And can the big thing is, I suppose you see the flip side here now because typically, what type of dog do you teach?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

So we teach naughty but nice dogs, is what we call them. So they're reactive dogs. So dogs that struggle with one of the most common struggles I see on our pet profiles

Why Horses And Dogs Can Clash

SPEAKER_00 1:40

that come through is livestock. So horses, cyclists, joggers, the dogs really struggle with seeing things like that because they're just not used to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Sheep, cattle, you name it. Eliza was hilarious the other day. We were looking down into the woods and she went, Mummy, there's a pig. Anyway, we looked a little bit deeper and actually it was a white stag. But it did look like a pig at a real distance. The big thing, I suppose, we're saying what we're saying is that actually people need to have really good control over their dogs around livestock, livestock including horses, and our horses need to be, I suppose, proofed and and built so that they're hopefully confident, resilient animals because accidents can happen. Yeah. And we obviously understand an accident.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Oh, definitely, definitely. And I think horses find it even harder with uh sorry, dogs find it even harder with horses because you put a rider on top and you've got an animal plus a human and it looks really different. So it's very novel to them and it's very unexpected. So they may be used to seeing people walking, a jogger, they may be used to seeing a sheep in a field, cow in a field, cows in a field, horses in a field, and then they're walking along a bridle way, and all of a sudden the two have been put together. So you've got sunglasses on your head. The yesterday I started off teaching and it was a bit overcast. I didn't have my sunglasses on. Put my sunglasses on, and one of the dogs could not cope.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

Like a complete. Michelle's taste in sunglasses, just poor. Yeah, like really poor. Dog was like, No, this is a bad move. No, on a serious level, what is it about them that the dog doesn't like?

SPEAKER_00 3:12

It's a change. So it's what they don't, they don't expect it. They've seen me without sunglasses. It seems like a small change to us as humans, but to the dog, it's really significant. That looks really different, and I don't know what to make of it. So I got barked at and we worked through it. It was a great training opportunity. But I can understand how a dog can see a horse with a rider on top, a human being on top, and go, Oh my gosh, I don't know what to make of it. Too novel.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Too novel. Now, the other thing I would say is it's really important for us to know as dog owners, because like Michelle, I've I've been involved in horses all my life, but probably I've been involved in dogs more than horses. I've never had my own ponies until the grand old age of I think probably late 30s, we we got our own pony. And for me, that was our first experience of having our own. I'd loaned ponies, I'd played with ponies, I dreamt about ponies, I'd like slept thinking like this is gonna one day like arrive in my garden, but never did. For me, owning a horse is such a beautiful opportunity, massive responsibility, huge liability. But actually, when you experience what I did only the other week, and I think we should talk through that scenario, that actually a dog running up a horse can be pretty scary. Uh, it's a very vulnerable situation. Um, I remember being sat in a courtroom when I was, I don't know, 19, 20, I was doing my law degree, and the rider of the bolting horse died. So the case was a horse had been chased by a dog, the horse had bolted, the rider had come off and then gone to hospital, but subsequently died after that event. And that then very much turned into a completely different case. Yes, because the level of responsibility

Control, Recall And Legal Responsibility

SPEAKER_02 4:55

obviously is on based on the owner. And if the owner isn't responsible enough, then then you know what, potentially you're in trouble. Now, what does responsibility look like uh in the eyes of the law, Michelle, and also in the eyes of the dog owner? Like what should we be doing?

SPEAKER_00 5:09

So the big question is do you actually have control of your dog? And by definition, I mean you can have a dog that's out of control that's on lead. But if you've got a dog that's off lead and you've got no recall, no ability to get them to come back to you when you call them, you absolutely do not have your dog under control. And in a situation like that, you're responsible for making sure that you can get your dog back. It doesn't necessarily mean that dog has to go back on lead, because I know a number of your dogs, if you called them back, they would just stay with you.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah, absolutely. They come and and then what I tend to do is I tend to use a game that we have uh scatter recall. Um so I play scatter recall, but I actually just stay with the scatter and not actually try and recall them from it. And I only recall them from it when I'm ready to move on again. So that's the only scenario we we move from. And so so yeah, it's a it's a different scenario, right, Michelle? Like we actually are looking for having and for making sure that we have really, really good close control.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Yes, and being a rider myself, as a also a dog owner, from the rider's perspective, if I'm riding a horse and I see an offly dog, I'm immediately worried because that is one of my worst fears for myself and for the safety of my horse, because dogs have teeth and they could nip at your horse's legs and as well, one kick in the right spot from your horse and it can kill the dog.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Absolutely 100%, 100%. I mean, a kick from a horse can kill a human, right? Like it the the potential is there for damage. And so for me, that's not a nice situation for the owner, for the horse, for the horse's owner, for the dog. It's not a nice situation for anyone. It's not a nice situation for anyone watching. It's actually a horrific situation around.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

But it's very real and it's very possible. So what we advocate for is helping teach dog owners how to be really responsible and do the do the best that they possibly can. So if you're we've got a bridal path right here, we know that there's going to be horses going down it. You've ridden on it. Eliza rides on it.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

We ride on it every day all the time. You've ridden on it many a time. You've taken horses out both on your own and with a company. Like you've taken beginners out, you've taken um friends out, we've taken family out. We've taken probably, I've had a 73-year-old lady on those horses, and I've had a seven-year-old child on those horses. So for me, we've been in every scenario with family and friends. When you have family and friends and you've got good ponies, they want to ride.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Absolutely. And it's beautiful, it's a lot of fun. So we want to make sure that our owners that come to us for training have really solid recall, really good lead work, and that they're training for these types of situations.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Now, in the past, what we used to do is almost have quite a sterile environment. We'd have them in a in a small training scenario, we'd have them in a in fact, I was talking to Dan about the workshop the other day, and he said, Yeah, we could board it out and we could make a really nice training room. And I was like, Oh, that sounds nice. And I thought, hang on a second, you're just gonna box it, make it smaller, make it much, much, much more sterile. And less real life. And less

Train For Real Life Outdoors

SPEAKER_02 8:00

real life. And for me, I'd prefer that Chris does walk in. Yep. Or I prefer that someone is, I don't know, walking with a dog. And so a walk that we went on the other day, in fact, you'd probably be quite interested. And Michelle always loves to be involved, and at the same time, you couldn't be because you were teaching the group who were there. And I took out, I don't know if you remember, Karen and Pam.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Yes, two of our.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

And I know Michelle would have come with me if she could have. She was just teaching the other group back here. So as we went out and we got out and about, I asked them, okay, you're seeing a dog up ahead. Let's take our dog's left and let's feed them. Okay, well, let's go ahead. And now we're seeing a cat up on the right. Can you guys all step to the left and make sure you're feeding your dog? And it felt a bit S Club 7. Step to the left, like type scenario, and a bit of a jig and a bit of a dance. But the best thing was, and it really was a very interesting scenario, is at first they tensed up when they were asking the dog to do something, and quite quickly they relaxed and they just allowed the dog to do what the dog needs to do.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

And that's a really good tip. And I get my students to do that. We get students coming here for a week-long holiday, and there's now research. And I'm going to go a little bit sideways for a second, but when I was competing, I competed for Bermuda in North America. I was really lucky, it was an amazing opportunity. But my coach would have me sit on my tack trunk. And I had back then it was an iPod, so I don't know, iPod my headphones, and I was not allowed to get on my horse until I had rehearsed my test the way I wanted to ride it three times. And it had to be perfect. And if I got it wrong and I messed up my extended trot, which was my sort of nemesis, then I had to go back through it in my brain and mentally ride it the way that I wanted it to be before I got on to go and warm up to then go do my competition. We do the same thing with the owners. And I know they feel a bit silly doing it, but back in the 90s, there wasn't the research behind it. There is now. You actually program your body to respond in these situations, even though you're not doing it for real.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Be ready for those situations before they ever happen. There's like an opportunity to do a dress rehearsal because people say there's no dress rehearsal. Actually, there is. You can dress rehearsal this and you can run it through in your space. And there's that great quote by Henry Ford, and it's fail to prepare, prepare to fail. Well, this is your opportunity to prepare. So let's run through the scenario and what's going to happen. So we step to the left, slide to the right, we then meander and zigzag, or we might set these guys up. So actually, that's what Karen and Pam did. And the dogs were really ready for that opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

So when you see that big Alsatian in your neighborhood that you're really worried about seeing, you've rehearsed it 12 times before.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

So your dog doesn't necessarily think, oh my god, there's a massive German shepherd coming. I mean, you might tell them that through the lead, but we try not to. Your dog actually knows how to rehearse this and feels safe in going, okay, this is what happens when my owner takes me over here and feeds me. Okay, this is what my owner does when they take me over here and feed me. And it's no different to the horse box. I've been saying to Eliza, Eliza, anytime you're up there, just try and load him on the horse box, give him some food and let him get off again. For me, rehearse and getting on without them having to have anything bad or going anywhere or anything difficult or any awkward scenario.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

So as that would play out for horses, it's walking along the bridal path, you've got your dog off lead and you look up. And to yourself, you say, There's a horse, call your dog back, pop them on lead, and you carry on. There's not really actually a horse there. Is there not? But you're well, it I I have to imagine. Well, let's not go there. Anyway, but the the whole idea is that you're practicing and rehearsing so that the time it happens, your dog doesn't think it's anything different. And neither do you, because you've done it 12 times before.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Now, many a time I'm out on a horse, and people say, Lauren, you're very, very relaxed. You look very comfy on a horse. Liza says I should be a western rider. I think she means I'm lazy. But for me, I'm very confident and cool and chilled on a horse, I would say, on the whole. I don't really panic or flap or fret, or I'm quite calm, quite like mellow about it. I'd say on the whole, the horses behave better because of that scenario, because you are very, very settled, mellow, chill, calm, sedate, happy, content. What do you think in terms of because when I see another horse coming and I'm on my horse, or I see another dog coming and I'm on my horse, or I see another car or vehicle or tractor or anything else, I kind of just think, cool, ride on. Yep. Yeah, on the whole, it's a ride-on moment. Yes. Do you think that your energy passes down the lead or the reins or the whatever is connection?

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Absolutely. And just like what with horses, with dogs, some are more resilient and don't know this. Massive. And others really pick up on it. And uh who you had out, Karen and Pam. I know Pam's Molly. The second Pam is the least bit worried. Molly's looking for the where is it? She's got her sword out. Where is it? Where's the threat? Whereas Karen's got two lovely labs that Karen can get a bit worried and they don't really

Mental Rehearsal That Changes Behaviour

SPEAKER_00 12:40

need to respond. They just are sort of like, cool, we've got this, we've got this. Where's her her German Shepherd? Would be a little bit more on the alert and noticing and being what where is it? What's going on?

SPEAKER_02 12:52

So now if we did a bit of a tip to tennis on what to do when you see a horse and you're out with your dog, yes. I'm gonna say the first tip would be actually alert the horse and call your dog. I'm just gonna pop him on lead. Bernie, come back here now. I'm just pop him on lead, halt there, slow down. Like, whilst you can't direct the horses or the cars or anything else, I personally, as a horse rider, have no problem with someone asking me politely just to slow down, stop, or turn around, or any of those things. As long as it's within my horses and my remit that we can do it, yeah, then absolutely like let's just get control of the situation. And I will, when the dog comes back, scatter it and click the lead on. Now, if your dog doesn't come back when you don't have a recall, there's a step before. Should we even be walking in that scenario when we don't have a recall? And if we are walking in that scenario without a recall, why is my dog off lead? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Absolutely. And and I would take it even a level higher. I would, as a rider and then as a dog owner, translating that, I would love it if a dog owner said to me, What would you like me to do? Because what a lot of people do is they go and hide in the bushes. So they step into the bushes to get out of the way. No horse is like, Oh my God, that freaks the horse out potentially. So sort of asking the owner, do you want me to walk past you? Do you want me to step to the side? What would you like me to do?

SPEAKER_02 14:07

And then and obviously, if you're limited to your skills, go with what your skill says. So I with one of my dogs, if I try and walk past, that's much harder for her because it's all in motion. She's a very high-drive chasey border collie. Whereas one of my other dogs, I'm much better to keep walking because that's still, or she's kind of like this hot pot, ready to sizzle over.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

So it just depends on the dog. You'd like a horse to stand still with one of your dogs and you walk past.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

And then the other dog, I'd like to just be scattering and feeding and someone else past her.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Yeah. And I think that communication is really important. And we try to encourage our owners, you've got to communicate and speak to each other. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's still a team with other people that are in the public. And you may not be able to control what they do, but at least you can try to get them to, I don't know, work together and try to have a really positive outcome.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Now, a video that I posted recently on social media, the line was if your horse can't cope with being chased by a dog, what do you think about that, Michelle?

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Um, I I struggled with watching the video because that video is actually one of my worst nightmares as a rider. So that whole scenario makes me anxious because you've got you're riding in near your home, yeah, a safe place that you've ridden lots of times, and you have a very large, awfully dog running at your horse, barking around its legs, and the owner is not doing anything.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Like absolutely zero, not calling the dog, not even hurrying over, not apologizing, not anything, like nothing, nada zilch zero. Yeah, and when you've got a situation like that where the owner's doing nothing, nada zilch zero, and you are on a horse. A horse is a flight animal. Yes. What that means is when a horse is scared, they're never realistically gonna come forward and fight, they're never gonna sort of like fiddle about like a dog will. They're gonna run and they're gonna run fast. And you're talking like 500 kilo plus of animal underneath you. Yes. You're not stopping it with a little bit in his mouth, you're just not stopping it.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

If it needs to go, it's going. And if it can't go, or it feels like it's pinned in and it's stuck and it doesn't know what to do, it's gonna fire out with its legs. And those are powerful. I've been kicked by a horse before, it hurts.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

You've been with me when I was kicked by Bali, and oh my god, my leg. Yeah. I make you see, you see stars, you want to cry, you want to like scream, like you might cry. Oh my god, the tears will come to your eyes. It's a horrible feeling.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

A gut wrenching. And I say you you handled that situation far more eloquently than I would have, because I would have been absolutely livid at the dog owner, and I don't think I would have kept my composure as well as you did.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Lots of people said I was really, really calm. And what I said in the scenario was, no, I'm really not okay with your horse chasing my, sorry, your dog chasing my horse. I'm really not okay with that. Um, and there's lots of things I'm okay with. There's lots of things that I can I can work with. I can work with me turning round, I can work with me going into a copse, I can work with me uh taking a different route, I can work with so many things, but I'm not okay with, well, if your horse can't cope with being chased by a dog, you shouldn't be on the bridal path. No, hold up, owners. That is not absolutely not your decision there. Your decision is get control of your blooming dog. Yeah, get control of your dog. I mean, it makes me livid. Yeah, get control of your dog. And it just totally inappropriate on every single level. Dangerous. I don't think anyone on the podcast will ever have heard me this angry. Um it's so dangerous. It takes one fall at the wrong angle on the wrong space in the wrong in the wrong day. Only if a couple of weeks ago, two event riders died on a on a Saturday competing. Just like horrendous.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Yeah, the horse is foul and it

Clear Steps When You See Horses

SPEAKER_00 18:29

it's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

And it's done quick. So for me, do not risk your dog, do not risk the rider, do not risk the horse, do not risk yourself.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

And we haven't even discussed the fact that you had your 14-year-old who should actually this was she would have been 12. 12. You had your daughter with you on a pony, and she was up ahead, and the pony was an absolute rock star. Stood still do anything, just kept his composure and took care of Eliza. You're you actually fell off.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

My horse was not as okay with it. And all it is is he was younger, he moved one way, I moved the other. Sometimes you don't know what they're gonna do, and they will jump because they're startled animals, they have that reflex. The big thing, and this really is a big thing to acknowledge, is it is your job as an owner to get a handle on your dog. And if you've not got a handle on your dog, then what you really need to do is not let them off lead in that scenario. Don't take them to that scenario, don't have them on a bridal path, don't and we've got so many um products and and and sort of things that people can purchase that solve this in its entirety. Games Club, for example. Does Games Club help with this?

SPEAKER_00 19:33

And we have to clarify the things that you would purchase purchase are all about training in a positive way. Absolutely. In an absolute positive way. Teaching a dog a whistle recall, using the use of long lines, house lines, keeping them on lead.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

I've got my dogs right now behind me, they're all sat on boundary. So they're all sat here on a boundary. All of these things, all of these things, and for me, emergency recalls, instant down, recall with distractions, scatter recall. There's so many things that people can do towards building this.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

And it's interesting because um the riders, I was just up this morning with Eliza, your daughter, and we went and visited her trainer's staples where she rides up, and there's dogs loose there. The dogs understand boundaries, they understand rules. They get the play rules. So they don't go into the horse's stalls, they stay at the doorway of the stall. They don't go into the ring when someone's riding. One of the dogs is 14. She might have stepped across the corner at one moment, but she's 14 and kind of we forgive her. Yeah, but she she's soon moved out of the way, and they just keep themselves to the side. And it's it's just what you showed there, the same application, but in a bigger scale. So it's the same thing when you go out walking with your dog, making sure they understand and are trained so that you've got 100% control over your dog when you're out on a walk. 100%. And if you can't, don't put yourself in that situation.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

And and if you can't and you're in that situation, you've made a bit of a balls up and you really shouldn't be there, at least go and grab your dog flipping quickly, get them back on lease, and apologize profusely to the person that you've just interrupted their day. Because for me, it is not anyone else's job to look after your daughter e-call. The only person who needs to look after your daughter equal is you. And you are the one that is in control of that dog. So when your dog does something that you don't like or that has gone a bit wonky, or that basically means your dog isn't in a controlled space, you absolutely need to interrupt it and go and get them as fast as you can.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

And I would say that's probably one of the most common things we see when I'm teaching. You were at the beach yesterday with your dogs. I'm sure you probably saw it. Owners standing there, their dog is liking it away from them, and they're calling it and it just stood stopped.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

There was one man, he was in the water, he was swimming. Oh my god, I've never seen the beach so busy. I'm gonna find your

When A Dog Chases A Horse

SPEAKER_02 21:44

video, Michelle, because for me it just reminded me of why it's so much nicer to go there because we're very lucky we live by the beach, but actually, it's not a place that I like to walk in the in the summer because as you go through, you see like how busy the beach is. So it's very different with the dance that Lauren's showing me, right? Like hundreds of people all over. So everyone said, Oh, it's so quiet on the beach you went to. I was like, Yeah, I didn't post the video of me getting there because you just have to get in and walk and power walk all the way through. However, there was a man in the water and he was right in the bottom. I mean, you look, there are people everywhere. The man at the bottom, he's he's right at the bottom and he's got his dog and he's swimming, he's having the best time of his life, and suddenly the dog legs it and gone. And you can see he just looks around, like, I'm not sure what to do now. Looks side slides. I'm like, well, no one else is telling you, son. Yeah, like go and do something, like do something, even if it's a dance or whatever, like do something. Yeah, because if not, you can see how in those moments that's where the real trouble can happen a bite incident, a chase incident, a chasing the cycle incident, uh pooing and fouling on a beach when no one sees the dog. Like, there's so many things that can go wrong in that scenario.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Absolutely. And it's not that just because we're dog trainers, it doesn't mean our life is absolutely perfect and we haven't had things go wrong. I was letting a dog out of my van the other day, and the lead, I hadn't realized the lead hadn't clipped on properly. The clip came off. And she legged it around the corner. I could not, I couldn't run fast enough. And I was yelling at one of the other trainers, what had happened, and we were sprinting down the lane. I kept calling. I grabbed a big bag of treats and she came straight back. She got a big handful of treats, clipped back on the lead. It happens, it's how you respond to it, and you do something about it, and then you make a mental note of what training do I need to put in place to help make sure that doesn't happen again.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Massive, absolutely massive. Yeah, like absolutely massive. Now, guys, if you want some help with your dog and chasing or recall or any of the above, games club has the answer.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Oh, Games Club is absolutely brilliant. It's packed, it's got so many things in it. One of my favorite games, you mentioned it before, and my students all groan. They groan because it's hard. And if it's a hard game, it means this game you should be playing. And it's called Scatter Recall. So it explains it to you off of Games Club. Scatter a bunch of food. If you can call your dog away while they're eating, that's huge.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

And we show you videos of this and we show you the lesson planners how to how you can do it. You can join Games Club right now for one pound, one British pound. We'd love to have you involved because it's the best space for dog learning and behavior and all of the things that you need to know about recall and recall around horses and dogs and people and all the things your dog might struggle with. You've got 10 days to stop barking, you've got 10 days to stop reactivity, you've got 10 days to pretty much everything you can imagine in there. And it's just a pound. Go and try it, go and get involved. If you want help with how to improve your dog's behavior around stock, livestock, horses, cattle, sheep, whatever it might be, it's all in there for you. And most of all, I know it's really important that we don't just bury our head in the sand, no, that we acknowledge this and we know for the future this is an area that we need to work through.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Absolutely. I mean, we've got a lady with us this week. Her dog is beautiful, not your typical naughty bit nice dog, but it runs over to other people's dogs. It's really friendly and she's recognized that she needs help.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

And actually love it. Dog running over to people, whether it's friendly or not friendly, is still out of control. So get your dogs under control. Absolutely, we're here to help you. We want to help you smash it with your dog. Thank you, Michelle. Make sure you guys improve that recall around other dogs, people, horses, whatever it might be. And if you're struggling, you know where we are.

Practical Tools And Games Club Invite

SPEAKER_02 25:24

We'll see you soon, Game Changes.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Bye.