Welcome And Why Guarding Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Yeah, I think the other thing is just around if we do need to remove anything, it's making sure we move him, not the object.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel podcast. I'm Lauren Langman. I'm one of the world's leading dog trainers, and it's my mission to help owners become their dog's top priority. In each episode, you'll discover how to gain trust and communicate with your dog like never before, creating unbreakable bonds that make you the most exciting part of their world. So,

What Resource Guarding Looks Like

SPEAKER_01 0:36

resource guarding, Amber, it's big, it's massive, you've lived with it. I think you were a sane, and I think your dog is an absolute menace, and I think he pushes every button. But actually, the resource guarding, I think, is so that aside, the resource guarding is in there way before you ever knew him. I think it's in his genetics. I think he um was born pretty much knowing this, and I think it hasn't been helped in the scenarios he's found himself and the positions he was in before you had him. You rehomed him at what age? 16 months old. So 16 months adult, adult dog, really, or adolescent uh Hungarian visual. Tell me about what resource guarding looks like at its worst in your household.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Yeah, so definitely at his worst was probably a good like six to twelve months ago, because we've worked on it really well now. But he would guard almost anything that he could. So his crate being one of the spaces that he would guard an awful lot, he couldn't have any high-value food or treats at all. Um, so bones, congs, anything like that. If you walked past him, he would have a big problem with that. And he would his worst lunge and nip at you. Yep. So the best choice would be he would take it away from you, but actually he definitely would. He has nipped me when I've tried to put him in his crate before. So trying to shut the crate door has been a problem, and I've ended up with a bite on the arm for that, which is a real problem.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

And you weren't really signing up for any of this, were you? You were you were helping out somebody who could no longer keep their dog. You thought you were signing up for a young adolescent fun, yeah, um Hungarian vigiler gun dog. Yeah. Fairly straightforward. You did not know you were coming into any of this.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

No, and we knew that he he wasn't right for the home he was in, but that was sold around her circumstances, and actually she'd lost her husband. It was just her and her son, and they didn't really know quite what they were doing with him, and he was just a bit too much for them. But the resource guarding was never mentioned at all. Um, and he actually came to me as a foster. So we'd applied to rescue Isla, but it was very much a case of we've got this guy, he's not been assessed. Will you have him see how he is after a few months, and then you decide if you keep him or not? And that's a difficult position because we were obviously never going to give him back, and some of this behaviour didn't really come out until probably about three months after we'd had him. So we'd already agreed to keep him before we realised that that was really in there. Yeah. Just because he'd never either never been put in those situations, or I personally think it took him a few months to settle enough to show me what that looked like and what he was struggling with.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

And I remember you saying that all the way along that you'd always wanted a dog like this, you'd always wanted a big dog, you loved Hungarian visuals, like you wanted this type of dog. It's just some of the stuff that happened, like the series of events next.

Management Over Confrontation

SPEAKER_01 3:12

So we know he's a resource guarder, we know that that I think is genetically fairly hardwired in there. We know that you feed him well, that he um has his um can canine supplements and all the other things that go alongside that, his probio. But the thing I suppose that you really had to learn was management.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

And that's allowed you to continue living with him, owning him, loving him, and actually still having a good relationship with the dog that potentially in your household can throw a bite in. So tell me what management looks like, and also tell me that because I think there's gonna be so many people listening out there who need to know it can look better. Because actually, on a day-to-day basis now, this is not really a day-to-day problem.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

No, it's not. However, you do know how to handle him. Yeah, absolutely. And I think if we didn't handle it well, it would come back in again like all the time. So part of the management really is just not putting him in a situation where he might guard something. So for the most part, he would get chews and things that he can finish, so stuffed tracheas or a rabbit's ear or something that he can finish and I never need to take off of him. He doesn't typically get a stuffed bone, whereas my other dog would, because she wouldn't have a problem with it. He may get a Kong or something, but we're then just really careful about how we remove that from the situation. Him and my other dog are never in the same room when they've got something high value because she would move around and he would take offence to that.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

And there's very likely how Amber even says that. She's like, he she's gonna move around and he's gonna take offence. So we actually don't do that. Yeah, she's not doing anything wrong by moving around and he easily takes offense. And I'm I'm just thinking back to a moment with my dad, and I was eating crisps, and he really took offence to the noise of crisps. And I don't think he meant to be like not tolerant, but he just wasn't tolerant anyway. I felt like I've I've learned that behaviour because if someone's eating crisps around me now, I'm terrible. And yet, if a dog was chewing a bone, I'd love it. I'm like, yeah, let the dog chew a bone, sounds lovely. Music to my ears. We can deal with that. Human chewing, absolutely not. So I suppose on knowing all of this, I love how you sort of describe that situation, and actually, you just don't put them in that situation. So give me another scenario, another management scenario, another um thought, another like way that you're doing life with guardi, resourcy, Hungarian Beachler.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Yeah, I think

Moving The Dog Not The Item

SPEAKER_00 5:20

the other thing is just around if we do need to remove anything, it's making sure we move him, not the object. Um so one of the strangest things that he guards, I don't even try to understand, is that if he's been sick, he will guard his own sick, which is very strange.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

For those of you listening, going, hang on a second, listen to a podcast and we're talking about the dog guarding his own sick, yes, it is real. And I think that's one of those ones that it's really hard to preempt for that because it's such a it's not something that happens every day of the week and it's not something that's gonna like be a frequent happening, but it does happen. Yeah. And so tell me how you manage that situation.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

So he did it probably last week, I think. I was actually stays here in one of the cottages. Um so I was in the same room as him, and it was the middle of the night. So it's not the sound you want to wake up to as the dog was. No, it's true. You hear it and you're like, oh no. But it meant that we had to, I like, I need to know what my management is to be able to know instantly what I'm doing. Yeah. And so my other dog went in a crate, so she was not part of the picture. I moved him outside and popped him in the garden, and then I went back to clear up the mess. Yeah. And if I'd have tried to clean that up with him in the room, I definitely would have got bitten because he can't cope with that. So actually, it's all around moving him away, helping him disengage and relax himself a little bit, and then going back to finish and remove the object. So obviously, with sick, you can't really leave it too long, but at home, I might move him away from a Kong or something 10-15 minutes before I would even go back into the room and think about getting it. And he just doesn't come with me. Yeah. So that he's fully disengaged himself from whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

That's such a big thought that people don't have, I think, is the fully disengaged. Yeah, because it's the same as they leave something and you look at it and you go to get it, and they look at you, and you both run to get it. It's just not the scenario you want for him, is it?

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Absolutely not. And I think he definitely is one that will read that's if you try to go back to the thing too quickly or you move, he will have he will really then like rush back and he's quicker than me. There's no way that I'm beating him anywhere. And so we had the same problem with a dog walker of ours where he started he was guarding the crate a little bit. And actually, I just think the dog walker was setting him up wrong. He was bringing him into the house in too high an arousal state, and then faffing around with shutting the crate and ended up just not being able to put him in his crate. Um that was a problem. Yeah, and so I had to do a lot of education and teaching him to be like, no, you need to just calm everything down, yeah, not overreact when he is in that mood, move him away, then bring him back a bit later and take the time and not rush it.

Multi-Dog Setup And Safe Spaces

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Yeah. Now, I suppose the other thing you said is you have got another dog. How does living with multi-dogs and resource guarding, and actually Cassie in her own right, is an naughty but nice dog, which is the reason you got involved in all the training and why you do what you do. So give me like day-to-day management tactics or things that you might think of day-to-day with both of them.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Yeah, it's just really to have them having their own space. So he has his crate, which is in the living room, it's next to the sofa. I'm very careful that Cassie doesn't go in there, so she would choose to. She's in the living room, they can be in the same space. But if they are both mooching around the living room, his crate door is shut because I know if she goes in there, yeah, whilst he isn't going to try and pick a fight with her because she would have a lot to say about that. She's a lot stronger. She's got her own opinions. 100%. He would feel uncomfortable, and I don't need him ramping up his feelings of being uncomfortable when someone or something is is around his crate. So we just don't put them in that situation. The crate's shut. The crate shut with him in it or the crate shut without him in it. Without him in it. Yeah, they're both out of it. Um, I don't ever have him in the crate with the door shut and her wandering around the room because that would also trigger his priest arousal.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

So if he's in his crate, she spends her day in the kitchen. Yeah. The baby gate between the kitchen and the living room. That's her space as the kitchen, his is his crate. So if we're not in the house, they're in separate rooms as well.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Now, put into the mix your husband. Like, how does this look in a like a multi-person household? And I know that a lot of people listening are thinking, wow, actually, there's a lot going on there. And for you, there's probably not a lot going on there because you're so used to it. Same for me. I'm like, this dog is here, they do that, move that, move that, juggle that, juggle that. I don't think too hard on it. However, for the majority of people, I do think they listen there and they're going, God, that's quite a lot. How does Tony take to all of this? How does he understand it or play it or get it?

SPEAKER_00 9:31

He's very good in that he just kind of goes with what I'm recommending and telling him we should do. He tends to not really overthink it. I think if it happened too much, he would find it frustrating. So I have to have done the training. I think if it was an ongoing part of life that was happening all of the time, he wouldn't tolerate that very well. He's not got the most patience for it. He fully understands what I'm saying was like keep the dog separated. I don't think he has ever had much of a problem with the guarding of the crate, it's only really happened around me. And I just think that's because I put him away more often, I manage the dogs more often. Um and Tony often works away from homes, and there's big chunks of time where he isn't there and isn't dealing with them. Yeah, it's sometimes very helpful to have two people. So there has been the odd situation, it's not happened for a while, but where I've been sat on the sofa and Serg was sick on my lap, I couldn't move. Yeah, yeah. I'd have got bitten if I'd have moved. It was very grateful that Tony was there.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Tony, can you move?

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Can you go out? Can you move him out of the room and then I'll deal with it? Um, and that was really helpful. That would have been much more fun. Having another person to get the disengagement to start. Absolutely. And we do play that off between us a little bit, is that one of us will move him away and go and play some games, and the other one will just pick up the object or do whatever. Yeah. And so that works really well.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

And then

Building Disengagement With Games

SPEAKER_01 10:44

when it comes to things like Kongs and how did you grow that into his world? Because I can understand why you wouldn't give a dog like him a Kong or a bone. Yeah. But now he has got a Kong. Yeah. Um, I understand how I would grow it in, but how did you grow it into his world?

SPEAKER_00 10:55

I think it was a lot of just doing the disengagement games. I've done a lot of trying to teach him like a hold or a retrieve where he would give me something to my hands. So we we shaped the Kong with that a bit before we put any food or anything in it, yeah, so that he was quite happy, at least presenting it to me. Yeah. I then don't often take it off of him. I'll let him come in touch and then take it away again, and that helps. Um, and really understanding how that how our management looked way before we needed it. Yeah. And we've only then introduced those things after we know that we've got that management.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

You've effectively skilled him up before you've ever needed it. And I know with cons for my dogs, I'll always start with something with a baby dog that they can completely finish it. So, like you said, where the rabbits is, they can completely finish it, they've had all of it, and then by the time that you're anywhere near it, it's actually much less interesting because the majority of the value has already left. Whereas when you're using frozen congs or harder, like more complex situation, then that's a level.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Yeah, and he would often not, he wouldn't be injured. It was frozen, he would eat the tiny bit up at the top and then be like, that's too much hard work because yeah, he's a bit lazy, really, with that. Um, he doesn't love his food enough. So that's where he's to work for for his food that much.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

And that's where it's really interesting, isn't it? Because you hear about a resource guard and you think it's because they desperately want the food. It's actually not, it's like something wired that is a disengagement struggle, and effectively they struggle to disengage. Now, is there anything else in life that he struggles to disengage from?

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Oh, all of the things he, other dogs, he would love to be playing with everybody. And when he can't play, what does he want to do? He gets so frustrated. So he'll bark and he'll look reactive in a similar way to a dog that might worry. He's just frustrated because he wants to go and say hello and he's annoyed that I've told him he can't. And I think that's come from a point of his previous owners doing everything they should have done in socializing and letting him say hello to everything, and now he can't.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

And they thought they should be uh saying to him. And just to clarify, because obviously you can't all see the camera, when Amber says they should, she means that the societal norm is socialise, socialise, socialise. But actually, for him, it was over-socialised, and therefore he just wants to play with everyone, and not everyone wants a 20, 30 kilo Vivila just landing on them. In fact, most people don't want that. Nobody wants that, and so so actually he becomes then frustrated. So, yeah, knowing it's a disengagement struggle, what games do you build and grow and do and play on a regular basis, knowing that actually this isn't really a dog who really wants the food. This is a dog who struggles to disengage and doesn't know how to handle his emotions and his feelings, and effectively he's got quite big feelings. He has, he's got very big feelings.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Um, we do a lot of like disengagement pattern games where we all throw a bit of food towards something and then reward him more heavily for coming away from that. Almost in day-to-day life, I don't need to send him towards the thing he wants to engage with, he'll do that himself. Um, so every walk or step outside looks like a lot of look at that thing, no come back with me. Yeah, doing a lot of like rewind and backing up games where he's got to move away from things. We use a a lot of games for anchoring him to help him move away from stuff as well. So, like a two pause on an item or backfoot targeting to give him something else to do that isn't engaged with everybody else in the whole world. Yeah. And then a lot of just being able to move through things like different behaviours, middle magic, hand, all of those different things that I'm getting his engagement and we're moving and keeping him, keeping him moving.

Visitors, Family And Risky Moments

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Now I know you also have friends, family, and um like mum who might want to pop over and see see you guys. How do you manage that with a household like this? Because I think the everyday listener, I exact I know exactly what we do. You come into my house regularly, you know exactly how my household runs. If I wasn't here, you would know how to manage my household because you've seen it enough. However, for like you're a dog trainer, I'm a dog trainer, you we get it. Yeah, how about for your mum or the regular friends?

SPEAKER_00 14:41

My family find it really hard. Again, a good example around resource guiding being Christmas. We were at my mum and dad's um, and it's really hard to get across to people. Please don't snatch or try and take anything from him. If he picks it up, just leave it and let me deal with it. And actually, he was being really good, he was on his boundary. We were using that to help him disengage from people opening presents. And I just took him out of that situation before he started to struggle too much because I could tell it was that my family he picked up a bit of wrapping paper and my arm went to move towards him, and I had to just be like, Stop, don't do that. I'll remove him from the room. But on a day-to-day basis, so I don't really live that close to my family, but when they visit, I actually often don't really have them in my hand.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

In the nicest possible way to them, we will go out. Yeah. And then if we've been out and we've been for a walk, they might then come back in and they come in with us as opposed to walking in on the box. Yeah. And I wouldn't get them staying long because I think there would be so many opportunities where he would struggle with them being in the space. He would struggle to disengage from them, he loves them, he thinks they're great. Yeah, he would find that very difficult. It was easy for it to go wrong, basically. It's really easy for it to go wrong, and for them to not know how to handle him because he's a lot, yeah, um, he's quite jumpy, yeah. They they don't want him jumping all over them, and they actually don't find him very funny. No, and we have to we have to manage that.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

He is a big dog, he's got a lot of energy. Now, given um the position you're in, and obviously you rescued him, you rehomed him, is there anything you do differently if you did that again?

Rescue Advice And The Honeymoon Period

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Because I do think that I I want to say it really carefully. I say I think sometimes the rescue and rehoming centres, they're so keen to get the dogs placed, and sometimes they're so keen to get them into homes, or like I watch a lot of dogs come in from like Ukrainian rescue, Romanian rescue. I mean, we take calls from people all the time doing that and struggling with that. Anything you'd advise someone who is going out there and getting a rescue or getting a new dog, or maybe going to find themselves in a position like you are, because you actually you're very well educated, you know, dog training inside out. You also have a career where you have to think through things like this regularly, like problem solving. You're the right owner for him. However, I think a lot of people, when they can get into this situation, they could find that very, very overwhelming. Any advice you'd give?

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Yeah, I I think part of it is just educate yourself beforehand. So we weren't in the educator position when we got our first dog, who is particularly naughty but nice. She's very was very reactive, really struggled. I had to do a lot of learning on the spot with her, and I definitely would rethink having a dog with those struggles without the knowledge behind it.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Thank God you were the type high five. So actually learning, moving, thinking fast on your feet, uh being dynamic. Like Cass is not an easy dog. And then you get a Sergey. And he's like probably, although he's not naughty but nice like her, he's more complex in a lot of other ways. Yeah. So any more advice that you'd give?

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Yeah, I think it's like so. First off, educate yourself, kind of know, know a bit about what you're gonna do. Don't be afraid to ask for help and do that as early as you need to. Yeah. And really just looking at how can you set your how can you set your new dog up for success if you are gonna go and get them, find out everything you possibly can about them beforehand. Um, and I would say don't focus on the what happened to them. I actually don't think that bit's as important. I think it's what are they struggling with now and what what does their life look like? Where are they? Are they managing in kennels? Are they with a foster? What does that look like for them? And really find out so you kind of know what you're letting yourself in for. And then I would have all of the like know the games and know the information if possible before you get them, so that the first thing you can do is start working on the skills that they need, yeah, and not be sort of look lured into that false sense of security that the first couple of weeks might look quite good while they settle in. Yeah, because actually he was quite shut down. And I think if you didn't know that, you would just think, oh, he's great. I almost looked in a couple of times and was like, why has she moved you on? You're you're lovely, and then he came out of his shell and it all came sort of flooding back in all the stuff that he was struggling with.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

I and I understand that I've rehomed, obviously, I've taken on an adult sheepdog, and she can show herself in really good lights, and then sometimes you'll see she's not rehomed in that sense, but you you'll see things that came out after having her because it's almost a honeymoon period, because you see it and they're like, Oh, you do have this in you. Oh, look at you being a little bit monkey. And so you see things come out as they become, like you said, more comfortable.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Yeah, they actually are just becoming more comfortable in their surroundings, so they offer something then, and just skill them up before they even need the skills, I think is one of the key things. So even if it's a skill you think, oh, actually, they've kind of already got it, still work on it, still do all that work so that it doesn't become a thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Yeah, makes complete sense. Makes complete sense. So resource guarding is there, it probably isn't going away. However, it's a heck of a lot better. Yeah, you can live with it, yeah, you can manage it, you can manage it around family, you can manage it around friends. If you came into that situation and you found yourself in the space again, you'd probably ask more questions and you'd probably also tackle more games quickly. If

Games Club Tools And Goodbye

SPEAKER_01 19:47

someone went into games club, is there lots they can find in games club to tackle this?

SPEAKER_00 19:50

So much, so much. So we've got blink bot will point you in all of the right directions of every game that's possible for that, understanding the skills that they're lacking and just going in and looking at what are the different skills and how can I teach those. But there's there's so much, there's almost too much to tackle in a short space of time in there. So I always find it's going in, doing a few of the games, getting that nailed down, and then going and looking for the next thing because there's always a level up to what you're doing. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

So, guys, if you haven't already got it, uh, One Pound Games Club, jump in. We advise that to all of our new clients, everybody there, because you can get that One Pound Games Club. You can jump in, uh you can find Blinkbot, you can look through disengagement, resource guarding, only dog who's a little bit resourcy. There's so much out there. Amber, thank you. Smashed it, nailed it. Guys, we will see you next time for more dog training and hopefully a little bit more amber in the future. Will you come back? Yes, she's coming back.